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v4 CD v. Lizzies

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:07 pm
by Border Reiver
Took a list that was chosen to try the Molocharoar special character and the new upgrades for the Inferno golems

Molocharoar
Slavemaster with the banner of Zharr Naggrund and a shield (deployed with the Obsidian Guard)
20 Warriors with Full command, Banner of the Daemonic tides, Chaos armour, shields and great weapons
15 annnihilators with standard and musician
15 annihilators with standard and musiican
5 wolfriders with musician, spears, bows and daemoneyes
5 wolfriders with musician, bows and daemoneyes
14 Obsidian Guard with full command and the warbanner
3 Inferno Golems- 2 with lightning axes and one with a reinforced carapace

He had a Slann (not sure of the abilities)
skink priest on foot
skink priest on an engine of the gods
20 temple guard, light armour, shields, halberds and full command
20 saurus with spears and full command
2 units of 10 skinks with blowpipes
2 Razordon hunting packs

Magically, I was outclassed (no surprise, I only had a single 4th level caster), had I wanted to go magic heavy, a high priest and a daemonsmith or two would be a better option.

I needed long range shooting - but I didn't take it, so bad on me.

HTH - the army did OK.
The inferno golems ripped through the razordons, and the reinforced carapace upgrade is definitely a must have - ASF for one model is not too OTT, but getting it for more than one golem is
One unit of Annihiliators did themselves proud, holding up a charge by the TG and slann so that the unit of warriors could flank them the next turn. The TG lost the combat, but got Insane Courage and so we were all stuck.

What didn't work:

Molochoroar, while a characterful idea is not durable enough to take all the punishment that can be thrown at him in both the shooting and the magic phase. In the combat phase he managed to hold his own agains the engine for two turns, until the saurus unit was able to flank them. Of course I would have preferred it if he hadn't miscast twice....
The OG - weren't able to get into combat, should have given them the Daemonic Tides banner.
The Blunderbuss shooting rules. They worked for me, but my opponent would have preferred the old "kill zone" and doesn't understand the rationale behind changing it, except that it made the Blunderbuss unit about 20x better, as I was able to get a shot a 1/4 of his unit, and cause a hit on potentially all of the models when only 5or 6 were actually in range.

The game ended at the bottom of turn 4, Molochoroar was dead, along with both units of wolfriders and one of annihilator units were at half S. I was engaged with the TG unit - and I had the flank and the OG with the BB were moving up to take on the saurus unit, while the other annihilator unit was untouched and laying out a beating. He had one unit of Skinks left, an ancient steggie and 15 saurus, plus one skink priest and the slann. Could have gone either way, but if I could have broken the TG, I stood a good chance of winning. We called the game a draw, as we had to leave the store at closing time.

Re: v4 CD v. Lizzies

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:57 pm
by Matt
Border Reiver wrote:The Blunderbuss shooting rules. They worked for me, but my opponent would have preferred the old "kill zone" and doesn't understand the rationale behind changing it, except that it made the Blunderbuss unit about 20x better, as I was able to get a shot a 1/4 of his unit, and cause a hit on potentially all of the models when only 5or 6 were actually in range.


I don't really see the range thing as a problem.
I've seen flamers, razordons, leadbeltchers, and ratling guns all do far more hits than models actually in range. Anything with a high volume of shooting is likely to be able to have this come up.

The current version gets a bit more range, hits less units, and avoids problems with hitting friendlies, or hitting enemies in close combat "on accident."


-Matt

Re: v4 CD v. Lizzies

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:08 pm
by Garrett
And the flip side is a monster or multiwound model is going to suffer a big whopping ONE hit. They do dingus against things like stegadons.

Re: v4 CD v. Lizzies

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:00 am
by Border Reiver
there are no problems with hitting friendlies, or hitting enemies in close combat - if the fire zone could hit a friendly, or units in combat you couldn't shoot. Period. We aren't skaven.

It's not the ability to hit the models out of range that is troubling - it just feels wrong that so long as one model of the target unit is within 12" of the front rank that you are able to potentially inflict a number of hits equal to the number of models in the target unit. The fire zone's mechanics felt right based on the description of how the weapon worked.

Re: v4 CD v. Lizzies

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:19 am
by mattbird
Hi all, I agree the blunderbuss rules are not 100% perfect. We did try a bunch of things, and this solution was the most favored. Not perfect, I know.

just feels wrong that so long as one model of the target unit is within 12" of the front rank that you are able to potentially inflict a number of hits equal to the number of models in the target unit.


I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but it's basically the same as any missile unit in Warhammer. As long as 1 model in the target unit is in range, the entire unit is a potential target.

Re: v4 CD v. Lizzies

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:07 am
by KevinC
RE: Blunderbuss. Also keep in mind that all the front rank models requie LOS to the target unit. So players can use units of fast cav or skirmishers to block LOS from a single Annihilator to prevent the entire unit from shooting.

Thanks for the report.

Re: v4 CD v. Lizzies

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:34 am
by Border Reiver
mattbird wrote:I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but it's basically the same as any missile unit in Warhammer. As long as 1 model in the target unit is in range, the entire unit is a potential target.


Yes, but this is the only unit where the number of potential hits is ALWAYS the number of models in the target unit, not just the number of shooters or the number shown on the artillery dice (which can have negative consequenses for the shooting unit). It feels wrong, whereas the fire zone, based on its description and mechanics felt right (or at least it feels familar, since I've been using the fire zone since '95)

Re: v4 CD v. Lizzies

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:51 am
by mattbird
yeah, I understand.

Re: v4 CD v. Lizzies

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:36 pm
by KevinC
Well the whole idea of the new blunderbuss rules it to elimanate the box and template-like method, so no you pick the unit in range, draw line of sight and roll the dice. There are both positives and negatives that go along with it and I think that is what puts it into balnce.

It just so happens I recently fought against an RH Chaos Dwarf army at Necro. While the player was a fun guy and his army was all fine, his combined shooting and magic phase was such a drag - it felt like it took forever.

Kevin out

Re: v4 CD v. Lizzies

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:44 pm
by Aves
RE: Blunderbuss. Also keep in mind that all the front rank models requie LOS to the target unit. So players can use units of fast cav or skirmishers to block LOS from a single Annihilator to prevent the entire unit from shooting.


It's gonna be hard to do that, with 90 degree arc of sight, one blunderbussers base corner can "see" corner of other model in the unit, they dont have to be in front, so to get a screen u have to cover ur valuable units in the same manner as any other. Besides i can take a shot from BB on my calvary or a dragon, or a stegadon, its gonna be up to 7 hits on calvary. pff