First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

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First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

Postby SpectralTime » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:53 am

So, I'm thinking about starting Malifaux. I've played a decent amount of Warmahordes and Warhammer, as Cygnar in the first and the Tau in the second. For those who play neither, both are heavily range dependent factions. Both are also the closest to "good guys" in the morally ambiguous world of tabletop wargaming, and while I don't know much about Malifaux's fluff, I've read enough to know that the Guild are a decent, if not nice, bunch of people with some genuinely moral folks working for them and some truly evil people in charge.

For starting out Malifaux, I decided I'd try something different, and pick up a melee monster. I hit on Lady Justice, both because, near as I can make out, she's a hero of justice trying to do the right thing in a rotten world, and also because she's a blind samurai cowboy and that's awesome.

However, I had a talk with some of my friends at the friendly neighborhood game shop tonight who actually play the game. Neither is terribly fond of the Guild (I know one has Hoffmann and Criid, two of the other Masters I was thinking about, but he prefers Neverborn) so neither has actually played as her, however, both are experienced players whose word I trust. The gist of their arguments is that, while potent under the right circumstances, she suffers from several major flaws:

a) She's extremely straightforward, and is thus ridiculously easy to counter for anyone who has even the slightest inkling what they're doing.
b) She's easily beaten by others when getting the short end of the stick in great game of Rock, Paper, Scissors that is Malifaux, even more so than is usual.
c) She's a one-trick pony, without any ways to work around her flaws, via either models or clever play.

Now, I don't know the game at all, and I only bought the cheap (comparatively, anyway) $15 dollar rules manual tonight, so I'd like to ask the board: to what degree are they right?
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Re: First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

Postby Guy In Suit » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:32 am

I think the advice you receieved conforms to the conventional wisdom but is rather lacking in nuance.

If Lady J is a one-trick pony - so is every other Master.

She is 'simple' in that it is not difficult to comprehend any of her mechanics. She is, simply, the most powerful melee model in the game.

No crazy spells or tricksy movement or Wp-based shenanigans. She goes in a beats face, end of story. Also, Riposte + use soulstones means she is practically immune to melee strikes from minions. (Weak models attempting to attack you gives you MORE attacks.)

She is easy to counter if by 'counter' you mean 'stay-the-fuck-away-from'. Non-Kirai resser's can't do that well, however, thus why Lady J is the best master against them. Regardless, if the opponents best strategy is to run away from you, you can control what parts of the board he can access safely, and thus dictate his position - very powerful in an objective based game like Malifaux.

"b) She's easily beaten by others when getting the short end of the stick in great game of Rock, Paper, Scissors that is Malifaux, even more so than is usual."

This I just don't understand at all. She has a weakness to ranged crews and Wp based crews - as does every other living melee-based master. Unlike some others though she has access to the guilds minion list and can take an incredibly strong ranged crew if she wants too.

A totally viable build with Lady J is to take nino and two austringers and pound the enemy from 16" away. They will have to decide to sit there and take a beating all game or rush in and receive Justice to the face.
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Re: First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

Postby mattbird » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:17 am

Having played a few games with Guild, I think they are the "weakest" of the factions, but as a rule I think if you like the model, go ahead and play it just as an excuse to paint it.
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Re: First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

Postby Guy In Suit » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:20 am

Your experience is with the weakest possible Guild list and one of the strongest Neverborn lists! :lol:

3 out of the top five at our last tourney were playing Guild. They are powerful they just lack subtlety. You may want more nuance in your crew in teh future, but starting out Guild is a great crew with which to learn the game.

And of course - play what you want to paint!
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Re: First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

Postby SpectralTime » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:24 am

I don't know enough about the game to clarify too very well, but the description my friends gave me was this:

You always know what Lady Justice is going to do: charge you. So, to counter that, make sure she can't draw line of sight to anyone by putting anyone she could hurt behind at least 3'' of cover. Furthermore, she is best against certain kinds of enemy, namely, those who stockpile counters to make things, and her effectiveness rapidly decreases against others.

Now, both of them favor Neverborn and the trickier Arcanists and Ressurectionists, so I can't say with any certainty whether that colors their thinking, but that's the description I was given. I understand the "board control" bit, though I'm not sure I'm smart enough to pull it off.

With regard to shoring up her weaknesses with minions... I don't know what those do, but I suspect they shoot things. The thing is, I was rather hoping to stick with a boxed set for a while.

Also... yeah, I never really got into the "hobbyist" part of the game. I've never played in a tournament and never paint my own models. I am now ready to endure your unending disdain.
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Re: First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

Postby Guy In Suit » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:47 am

They appear to not have read her rules in detail...
SpectralTime wrote:You always know what Lady Justice is going to do: charge you. So, to counter that, make sure she can't draw line of sight to anyone by putting anyone she could hurt behind at least 3'' of cover.


Lady J ignores Line of Sight for declaring charges - I believe the rule is called Blind Justice. If they played her without one of her lynchpin rules - I can see why they think she is weak.

The guys in her box are all powerful shooting models - likely for a reason.
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Re: First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

Postby mattbird » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:52 am

Guy In Suit wrote:Your experience is with the weakest possible Guild list and one of the strongest Neverborn lists! :lol:

3 out of the top five at our last tourney were playing Guild. They are powerful they just lack subtlety. You may want more nuance in your crew in teh future, but starting out Guild is a great crew with which to learn the game.

And of course - play what you want to paint!


I realize that, but I also looked at all the models for Guild in depth. IMO, compared to what other factions can bring to the table, they are on the weaker side of things.
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Re: First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

Postby Guy In Suit » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:57 am

I agree with you when it comes to some of the higher point cost models. I've always found the Judge, the Executioner and the Peacekeeper (outside of a Hoffman list) rather meh for the cost. For 6 points - the Hunter is overpriced flat out.

I think the strength of guild lies in the surprisingly high damage on their 4 and 5 points models.

Deathmarshalls - witchlings - Austringers. All very cheap considering the damage output.
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Re: First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

Postby SteveinNYC » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:35 pm

mattbird wrote:I realize that, but I also looked at all the models for Guild in depth. IMO, compared to what other factions can bring to the table, they are on the weaker side of things.


Can you talk about this more: what are some examples?
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Re: First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

Postby slann » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:56 am

I am pretty much all guild all the time , I own just about every model for them and run them in just about any configuration .
I will tell you they can go head to head with any faction out there . My win record is way higher than losses , ( except against those damn Vics ! looks at Andrew ) . They have an answer to any crew out there , after you know there faction it is pretty easy to come up with a good counter . If you make a mistake against them the guild jump on it and make them pay . they put out crazy damage for a low point cost per model . unlike most crews out there , the minions pull the weight of this crew with the masters being more of a knock out punch . ( except for Hoffman he works overtime when played ) .

Lady J is a great starting crew for one . also she is such a threat she can control where things go . she is pretty fast with a 5 move and an 8 inch charge with a 2 inch reach , that's a 10 inch threat with a charge on a 3x3 table is a nice area of control . along with Nino and Ryle you can pretty much threaten the whole board . Also in this game only a fraction of the missions require you to kill models . so if your playing to the missions which usually involve coming at least to the halfway mark of the table you will have no choice but to face her or the other guild beat sticks . remember if there spending the game trying to avoid her than there not using there own stuff to full potential either . Alsop like Andrew said blind justice is key , makes it very hard to hide from her since she can charge with out line of sight . Also even with out it just moving into combat and making a regular attack she still can put out the hurt .

Lady J 3 death marshals , an ausinger , Nino and Ryle make a pretty nasty crew . you still have stones left to play with in a 35 point game .
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