Painting by Others

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Re: Painting by Others

Postby -LcKedovan » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:28 pm

From an outsider point of view I think the real issue that comes out here is the "transparency" of the GT scoring. I think if most people were aware that armies painted by someone else are docked points and they should be scoring the painting scores without prejudice then everything would be fine. The main point is it has to be clear that the organisers are doing something about it, otherwise;

1) people will take a vigilante attitude to the paint scoring
2) it is unfair to the people who put in the effort to paint their own armies
and
3) it is unfair to the people who can't paint, like to play with a nice army (and shell out for it), and who come clean about it.

That said, if someone is found to have not painted their army, but said they did, or mislead people then they should be burnt at the stake :) .

In terms or recognising a well painted army that someone has bought/commissioned/whatever, perhaps a simple "honorable mention" award or somesuch could be given to what would be a first place painted army where the player has clearly stated someone else painted it.

-W.
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Re: Painting by Others

Postby Emperors Reckoning » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:37 pm

Not attempting to criticize, Ed, I'm just find it curious that you espouse subjective standards (not the verbatim descriptions) on sportsmanship while espousing verbatim adherance to appearrance.

I tend to treat all subjective scoring as purely subjective based upon my own experience unless a scorecard makes a specific statement. In that case, I try to adhere to stated criteria of the scorecard as much as possible.

In a similar vein, I have never assumed that perfect is the default score. I seem to be in the minority in that. Many of the people I've played, and have heard tell of, seem to assume that, short catastrophe, their score should be perfect. I don't agree, and mark accordingly.
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Re: Painting by Others

Postby Bauhaus » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:56 pm

I was checking out the GW website and they just want painted armies. They don't say anywhere that you need to inform your opponent or act as if you didn't paint your own figures (kinda wierd.) It would seem that they're more interested in promoting their game by having nicely painted figures, good sportsmanship, great battles and fun for all (really wierd.)

Quote:
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS (FAQ) :

What to Do if:

If I dont finish my army before the GT? Beg or borrow additional models from friends. this year, unpainted models may not be used in the Grand Tournament. Make sure to get painting early!

My army gets lost, stolen, or impounded? Once again, try to borrow an army from a friend. This way, youll still get to play in the Grand Tournament.

Im having an absolute horrible time because of another player or event? Talk to Games Workshop staff! They are there to make sure everything runs as smoothly as possible. They can help you work through any problems that arise.


They don't seem to be saying that you should only participate with your own army. They'd probably just as soon get your cash. But are you eliminated from overall and best painted status? It doesn't address that at all.
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Re: Painting by Others

Postby mauleed » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:13 am

Well, sportsmanship scores, as far as I'm concerned, are complete bull$h!t. The notion that one guy beats another guy because he's a bigger suckup, gives better parting gifts, or has a more outgoing and fun personality is utterly offensive to me.

So, in protest, I refuse to participate in the whole process.

Of course this presents a problem because I can't just leave the sheet blank. So everyone who doesn't cheat or just piss me off in general gets a perfect. So, I get to have my silly little protest, never have to hear anyone complain about their score (unless they're a cheat, then screw 'em), and can sleep at night.

In the end, this is little different from Nidal's "Damn what the sheet says, I'm dinging you" stance here. So please don't mistake my objection to Nidal's stance as an adamant objection. It's not.

The only thing I'd adamantly object to is someone saying that we should all ignore the scoresheets and just grade however we like. I'd be very amused if everyone did that with sports scores (and for the most part they have) but that still doesn't make it right.
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Re: Painting by Others

Postby mauleed » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:17 am

Dave: Again, I specifically asked the judges, because of the roomie situation. They said the only thing you're out of the running for is the players choice/best army award.

And I went down early on Friday and spent 4 hours with these guys setting up the hall, so it's not like I was just some shlub at the tournament asking them. They knew me and I them.
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Re: Painting by Others

Postby VectorAWX3 » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:33 am

For the record, I have no respect for any laws, rules, or constraints put upon any part of this world by Man or Beast. :) I do what I feel is right.

So Ed... if YOU were to host a tourney, how would YOU specifically address the scoring of "borrowed" armies?

Dave, I think GW, in their text, implies that in an extreme case, you may borrow a few figures, and in a catastrophic emergency, you may borrow an army. But they do tell you "Make sure to get painting early!" which to me strongly implies that they want you to field your own army.
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Re: Painting by Others

Postby Emperors Reckoning » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:48 am

Quote:
The notion that one guy beats another guy because he's a bigger suckup, gives better parting gifts, or has a more outgoing and fun personality is utterly offensive to me.


Hmm...could be there is an education lapse or background issue here.

From the American Heritage Dictionary:

sportsmanship (sprtsmn-shp, sprts-) n.

1. The fact or practice of participating in sports or a sport.

2. Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.

There is, of course, the need to define all the subsequent terms, but I'll let that pass for the nonce. The key issues for sportsmanship have to do with trying your best to do a good job within the rules of the activity (fair play, striving spirit) and being as concerned for the experience of your co-participants as you are for your own (courtesy, grace in losing).

It's got nothing to do with sucking up, or any other form of insincere behavior.

Bottom line, sportsmanship is the Golden Rule, with the caveat that it gets quantified by the recipient. Not many people are good sports, and of those who are, not many are consistly good sports. Lord knows I'm not.

Broadening the topic a bit, one of the inconsistencies I've discovered between American subcultures is their relative views on courtesy. Here in the North, I've found tht often as not courtesy is viewed with suspicion, or as a weakness. In the South, where I was raised, it is regarded as bseline requisite behavior and a strength. I've noticed similar variations in urban/rural attitudes throughout the nation.

But to get back on topic, sportsmanship is simply giving a shit whether or not your co-participants have a positive experience. While you might be able to simulate the outer appearances of giving a shit, that's not the same thing.
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Re: Painting by Others

Postby mauleed » Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:25 am

Duncan, my stance on sportsmanship is and will always be tainted by my first GT experience where I was given bad sports scores that I didn't deserve. So I'll always object to any system that lets you anonymously ding someone undeservedly.

Nidal: In tournament's I run it doesn't matter who painted what. But the appearance award is either my choice or players choice in my tournaments. And I would not give it to someone with a bought army. So you won't win it unless the other players don't care that you didn't paint it.

But they could still win overall in one of my tournaments.
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Re: Painting by Others

Postby VectorAWX3 » Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:31 am

Quote:
But they could still win overall in one of my tournaments.
Not only will I go to my grave disagreeing with that point of view, but I'll be much less inclined to attend any tourney which allows a player to rack up points for the overall (or any other) position based on someone else's paintjob.
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Re: Painting by Others

Postby -diel ka than » Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:33 am

Ed, when you check the box that you did not paint your army, you invalidate yourself from any award that includes painting

No Overall, no best painted, and no player's choice

One of my best friends worked them up unitl this year (he was hurt) and that's what happens in the backend
...I said in the backend...

Anyway, GW does handle it as well as they handle any other scoring...
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