The missing matter of the universe: Dark Matter...

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Re: The missing matter of the universe: Dark Matter...

Postby -Tiger Raja » Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:35 am

From page 14 of Codex: Dark Eldar (2nd Edition) re. dark lances:

Quote:
The dark lance fires a beam of dark energy that annihilates anything it hits.


And from page 35 of the same:

Quote:
...the dark lance...fires a stream of what is, for want of a better term, 'dark matter.' The origin of this substance is unknown, although there are a number of theses claiming it can be found in black holes, warp storms, and other celestial phenomena of great magnitude. This dark matter works by reacting catastrophically with with its target, producing a blast that is more than capable of of destroying any vehicle regardless of the thickness of its armor, or totally vaporizing a foot soldier.


Sounds more like the Star Trek version of anti-matter, doesn't it? Ah, you gotta love GW pseudo-scientific hooey. :p
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Re: The missing matter of the universe: Dark Matter...

Postby Bauhaus » Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:53 pm

Actually, I think Lou has hit the nail on the head. Light must have mass.

"Warped Space/Time" is more a reference to the lack of Euclidian Geomerty in Space and the way Einstein's Relativity Theories completely change our understanding of Space/Time (or lack of understanding) about motion, attraction, relativity, etc.

But the Law of Uniiversal Gravitation is:

Quote:
Every object in the universe attracts every other object with a force directed along the line of centers for the two objects that is proportional to the product of their MASSES and inversely proportional to the square of the seperation of the two objects. (My emphasis.)


For light to be attracted by any object (including massive black holes, that don't just refract light but capture it) it must have mass or some sort of mass like properties, it would be reasonable to argue (as we are) that light has both wave (energy) and particle (mass) characteristics.

Most of the emperical evidence would support the position that the photon has mass but since they haven't figured out how much mass it has yet, they assume for most situations it has none.

I wouldn't be surprised that they discover the mass of the photon at some point and that it's related to the frequency.

I don't believe that there is enough mass in the photon to account for the missing Dark Matter by the way.

Also, the constant of proportionality G the Universal Gravitational Constant is still considered one of a few "universal constants" (of which the speed of light c is not any longer.)
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Re: The missing matter of the universe: Dark Matter...

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:54 pm

Ah.

Light both MUST and MUST NOT have mass. Like I said to Lou, if you figure that one out, you get a Nobel Prize. Unified Field Theory and all that jazz
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Re: The missing matter of the universe: Dark Matter...

Postby Bauhaus » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:49 am

Exactly right!

Does it have mass at the same time as it doesn't?

Is it like the electron in that you can measure it's speed or location, but not both at the same time?

Or do we really just not understand time, space and matter at all?

(I'm for the last one by the way. Our puny little brains just can't fathom the universe.)
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Re: The missing matter of the universe: Dark Matter...

Postby savaughn » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:09 am

Oh, you did NOT just try to argue that Newton trumps relativity. You just lost the argument there, Dave. ;)

Newtonian physics work as nice approximations but that's it. You can't even use the "Law of Universal Gravitation" to work out Mercury's orbit. That's an entire planet that violates the "Law of Universal Gravitation". Please don't try to extrapolate the movement of light by it because it won't work.

Newtonian physics will argue that light has mass, true. But in that, as well as so much else, they are quite simply wrong.
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Re: The missing matter of the universe: Dark Matter...

Postby The Gunslinger » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:08 am

Quote:
Ah, a cliffhanger. I love cliffhangers. And a call to my better nature. Silly Lou, I thought I didn't have one.
What am I, Luke Skywalker, and you Darth Vader?! :) Is there really good in you? :eek

I'm familiar with light behaving as both a particle & energy, just can't recall all the points.

I think it's funny how you can prove X with Newtonian thinking, but disprove it with ABC's thinking. Science is a constant evolution of human understanding. :)

I can't read any of the books mentioned until I finish Ivanhoe, and several others. I have too much stuff to read! :(
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Re: The missing matter of the universe: Dark Matter...

Postby Bauhaus » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:45 am

Newton doesn't trump relativity. I don't think I said that. You should really try to keep from saying that something is "quite simply wrong" when it actually isn't simple and it certainly isn't wrong.

As Ken suggested, you find out what the mass of the photon is and you'll win a Nobel Prize. Or you prove that it is massless and you'll win a Nobel Prize. Neither has been done successfully but I would pursue mass if I were you.

1) Newton explains most of the gravitational effect with the interaction of objects particularly solid bodies at low levels of gravity. The Law of Universal Gravitation explains most of the movement of ALL the planets in the solar system.

2) The other planets in the solar system cause most of the perturbations in Mercurys orbit, also explained using the Law of Universal Gravitation.

3) Relativity adds to the Newtonian physics particularly in situations where gravity forces are high but in the case of Mercury adds more corrections to the calculation of Mercurys orbit.

4) And, finally, other theories account for the remaining differences such as solar bulges and Solar quadrupole moment.

So, Newton plus Einstein plus New Science explain the orbit of Mercury.

I wouldn't characterize Newtonian Physics as an approximation but as one of the factors involved in calculating the effects of one object on another. Mercury just happens to be an example of a multi-factor observation. (Just think of all the factors that affect the tides here on earth.)
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Re: The missing matter of the universe: Dark Matter...

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:53 am

Dave: My expectation is that NEITHER Newtonian nor Einsteinian physics will be the 'victor' when it comes to the mass of photons.

Rather, it's more likely that there will be some new insight/development that reshapes the field of physics thereafter, and which (while incorporating insights from both Newton and Einstein) is truly distinct from either of the previous theories.

Thus, a "Unified Field Theory" that combines general relativity and quantum mechanics. Etc
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Re: The missing matter of the universe: Dark Matter...

Postby savaughn » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:15 am

See, personally I think we're never really going to see a Unified Field Theory. I think QED is going to be as close as it gets and then we get to peel it back and find the next layer of the onion - although, that said, QED is in fact a relativistic quantum theory which is ludicrously cool.
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Re: The missing matter of the universe: Dark Matter...

Postby Bauhaus » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:20 am

Exactly right - except that Newtonian and Einsteinian physics won't be losers, they're integral parts of the Grand Unified Theory.

It will be Newton plus Einstein plus New Physics that completes the GUT.

Newtonian Gravity
Strong and Weak Theories of Relativity
Electromagnetism

Unified all together!

And what is it they're working on to unify all? That's right, the mass of the photon (and other really small particles) or observations in astronomy (black holes), or in other realms where any of the above mentioned theories interact.

Someone might even discover the GUT by looking at the orbit of Mercury.
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