The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby The Gunslinger » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:10 am

Alright, the bottom of that site says "This site has been recommended by the American Association for the Advancement of Science, as an exemplary resource in astronomy." But I like the official feel of the other site that has links to other sites to get background info from.

Ken. Stop insulting me. What don't you understand about that
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:21 am

You keep playing the little kid's game where, every time you're refuted or disproven, you change the rules of the game (no, the point was really X! no, the font on that website was too big! no, you keep insulting me so what you say doesn't count!).

How about this: go down to the local bookstore, pick up ANY book at all on quantum physics.

There will not be a single one that agrees with you. Not one.

Pick ANY physicist in the country. Hell, in the WORLD. Any at all. There will not be a SINGLE ONE that agrees with you. Not one.


Re-read that article you deceptively quoted from. The quote you've highlighted explains why human beings cannot 'hear' sounds 250000 light years away with the naked ear. Even your own selection very clearly implies that sound DOES travel through outer space for a very good distance before being muffled by other background 'noise' (like heat).

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It's like you're arguing that the color red is actually your dear Aunt Petunia...and finding some way to ignore the fact that there is no evidence (at all!) that supports your claim.

No, the human ear cannot register the sorts of sound waves in outer space. The first link (the one that you apparently didn't like at first, then changed your mind about) actually explains WHY this is the case. The sound waves are too big.

This does NOT mean that there is no sound in outer space.

By standing around with your fingers in your ears screaming "la la la la!" when people tell you THAT you're wrong and WHY you're wrong and HOW you're wrong -- well, that's just the height of infantile behavior.

You do have an amazing ability to absolutely 100% discount ANY information coming from a source you dislike (= me), regardless of the enormous weight of facts supporting that information. But stubborn-ness doesn't equate to accuracy
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby The Gunslinger » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:29 am

Ken, in the 2nd article I found this...

Quote:
Not enough atoms -- if any -- would strike our eardrums. "Maybe if we had an amazingly large and sensitive microphone we could detect these sounds, but to our human ear it would be silent."
This suggests to me that A) you need atoms, not photons, or any other non-atoms, to have soundwaves. And B) the "maybe" suggests speculation. As in, we don't have the instruments to detect the theoretical soundwaves that you guys are talking about.

But the 1st article presents the average amount of atoms (10) per cubic centimeter in space, and calls it the interplanetary medium for sound to travel thru. Do you at least agree that sound wouldn't be able to travel very far in this 10 atoms per cubic centimeter? Eventually the atoms will miss other atoms and the sound will dissipate, I think, very quickly. No
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby The Gunslinger » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:30 am

Thanks Ken
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:55 am

Quote:
This suggests to me that A) you need atoms, not photons, or any other non-atoms, to have soundwaves.
The distinction is artificial. See: Einstein, entire field of modern physics.
Quote:
And B) the "maybe" suggests speculation. As in, we don't have the instruments to detect the theoretical soundwaves that you guys are talking about.
Reading is fundamental. Try the very next paragraph in the article. Actually, let me quote it for you: "An amazingly sensitive microphone, in a sense, was used to discover the constant B-flat coming from the black hole"
Quote:
But the 1st article presents the average amount of atoms (10) per cubic centimeter in space, and calls it the interplanetary medium for sound to travel thru. Do you at least agree that sound wouldn't be able to travel very far in this 10 atoms per cubic centimeter? Eventually the atoms will miss other atoms and the sound will dissipate, I think, very quickly. No?
No. Although this is intuitively appealing, this is not actually how the universe does things. In other words, you're entirely misunderstanding the nature of wave forms. As Jarrett explained (and you ignored).
Quote:
Thanks Ken
You're welcome
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby elrodogg » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:03 am

Lou said:

Quote:
Eventually the atoms will miss other atoms and the sound will dissipate, I think, very quickly. No?


Actually the opposite of that is true. Say for particle X is carrying the sound wave. It continues to miss all particles and continue on it's way in deep space. With the complete lack of outside forces (gravity doesn't act on it at that distance, heat, electromagnetic repulsion, etc.) it will not change. A body in motion stays in motion.

This is different from say stored potential energy in the form of heat. A hot particle would shed it's energy until it became as cool as it's surroundings FYI: that's why poop freezes when they vent it from the space shuttle/plane, creating a solid ball of poop which is it's own world of problems (see the movie Joe Dirt). Fortunately we're not discussing poop or we'd be hearing jokes about Nidal and Ken being full of it left and right :lol .


Lou - If you want to brush up on your basic astronomy/physics/chem can I suggest "A Brief History of the Universe" by Stephen Hawking. He does a fantastic job explaining some rather advanced theories in rather normal english. I own it, so say the word and I'll be happy to lend it to you.
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby VectorAWX3 » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:24 am

Quote:
Quote:
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This suggests to me that A) you need atoms, not photons, or any other non-atoms, to have soundwaves.
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The distinction is artificial. See: Einstein, entire field of modern physics.

It's not that artificial. There are significant differences. Bu tin any case, there are atoms, so it's a non-starter.

Ronen, also read Bill Bryson's "A Brief History of Everything". Very nice read. Highly recommended.

Still, you're all arguing with Lou (cut it out, Lou. You've lost, bud) and failing to answer my damn question: at which distance does a 100 tons of TNT exploding in space get so drowned out/fuzzed out due to background noise/ultra-thin medium, that the sound wave becomes so disorganized that it can't be identified as an explosion of 100 tons of TNT? Is ANYBODY going to answer me here? :p
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby The Gunslinger » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:32 am

Ken defecated out of his mouth...
Quote:
Reading is fundamental. Try the very next paragraph in the article. Actually, let me quote it for you: "An amazingly sensitive microphone, in a sense, was used to discover [not hear] the constant B-flat coming from the black hole"
And in the same article (towards the end?) they specified that "no" they didn't hear it, they saw the sound. Accuse me of misquoting, you feces pukin bag of skin? Oh, sorry...did I insult you and stoop to your level? Am I wasting too much of your putrefidic time?

****************

Ronen, when particle X misses all other atoms and keeps on going, doesn't the "wave" lose it's form & dissipate? I would think that the uniformity of the wave would have to be maintained by hitting another atom.

A Brief History of the Universe is one of those books that I always mean to buy and never remember to. :lol I would love to borrow it, but it's got to be in my collection, so I'm adding it right now to my Amazon Wish List. :D Thanks!

Hey, I brought up some points that I'm honestly looking into/speculating on/would like some feedback from. The thought of having enough atoms throughout space to carry some semblance of sound is new to me. But take it easy on me. It's like converting to a new religion. ;) I have to take a step at a time. You've stimied a long held and precious idea of many space lovers by saying that sound actually does exist in space... just not anything that we can hear.

I'm glad you came back to post, cuz I'm tired of the mixed topics with hot headed comments from Lord Ass Clown.

Here are my thoughts that I emailed Nidal a little while ago but he's not at work any more. :) ...........

I suspect a bit of theorizing by the ones that hold that sound does travel thru space, instead of there actually being an event of detecting a sound via an instrument that traveled thru actual space, not a gas cloud. [Like much of quantum physics is only found on a chalkboard, not a laboratory.]

One article poses the *possibility* of hearing sound thru space if we have a sensitive enough microphone; the other flat out states that there are 10 atoms per cubic centimeter of outer space, and sound can travel via that medium. What kind of average is that? Is that based on all the concentrations of gas, stars, planets, etc, out there? Or is it based on what is commonly known as an area of the vacuum of space? And that's an average, so it's safe to assume that it will vary enough to wear you might have pockets of actual vacuum. Therefore once sound comes across a true vacuum, it'll stop. Plus how far does any sound travel when there is enough atoms? Is it far enough to "travel through space". I guess we have to define the distance of space? Maybe it's suffice to say that any distance would qualify?

Lastly, these questions just made me remember an interesting conundrum that can relate to this... you can never stop halving a distance. At what point is it possible to say "I've divided a distance between two points in half, to the point where I can't divide it any further." Can you reach a volume of gaseous atoms in space to the point where a soundwave cannot be produced? I guess so... a volume of 1 atom per cubic anything. But how about this... how close do two or more atoms have to be in order to have a soundwave? Then the variable is the area.

Thoughts? Am I taking this too far? Should I get back to work? LO
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby VectorAWX3 » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:48 am

Lou, to "hear" a sound, from what I gather, it would have to be an EXTREMELY low-frequency/long wavelength sound. That would fix the resolution problem of delivering a wave through such a thin medium.

"Lord Ass Clown????!?!??!?!" :rollin (I had to laugh at that one.)

Quote:
Here are my thoughts that I emailed Nidal a little while ago but he's not at work any more.
Dude.. I haven't been at work since noon. I got "sick." *cough* *cough* ;)

Quote:
Can you reach a volume of gaseous atoms in space to the point where a soundwave cannot be produced?
No. You cannot say that. You can simply increase the wavelength/decrease the frequency of the "sound" to compensate. BUT... what you can ask is "using this particular and imaginary instrument, can I detect this particular sound? What if I double the distance? Etc." Your imaginary device would have to get bigger and bigger. In theory, you can keep dividing and multiplying forever. Theory is fun, BUT I WANT REAL-WORLD NUMBERS!!! (and I can't find them) :(
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby elrodogg » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:49 am

Lou - put it like this. Things are both waves and particles. Look at the ocean. You can see waves and you can also see particles. Obviously it's both, not one or the other.
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