The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby The Gunslinger » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:09 am

Quote:
Theory is fun, BUT I WANT REAL-WORLD NUMBERS!!!
Nidal, agreed on both counts.

***************8
Ronen, I understand that, but the behaviour of sound in my mind is the continuous colliding/vibration of atoms. I think your last post was regarding my reply to your "particle X" example where X just keeps on going as it's own wave. Right?

Photons travel, each particle on it's own, as a wave. Sound is the collision of multiple atoms and I believe ends once there isn't any more atoms to collide into. Correct? You can't have a soundwave of 1 atom, as per both types of websites that hold both ideas: sound does travel in space & does not. So the atom that never collides into another atom for the rest of it's life, is finished as being part of a soundwave
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:10 am

Nidal: in theory, if you knew what the frequencies and patterns of the 'background noise' was, you could use that information to block out the 'background noise' and reconstitute the sound wave pattern of the 100t blast of TNT from virtually any distance.

In actual practice, I suspect that after a couple hundred light years this would become impractical. Plus, the further the wave has to travel, the greater the odds that it will run into something that either disperses it or completely blocks it from reaching us (comet, planet, star, asteroid, etc)

-----

Lou: a wave is a wave is a wave. Human beings happen to 'hear' certain kinds and 'see' certain others. But they're just two portions of a large scale of waves.

Atoms never 'stop hitting' other atoms in outer space; they just do so much less frequently than they would in an atmosphere.

PLEASE buy the books Ronen and Nidal have recommended, and read them. :
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby savaughn » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:48 am

Let me give a shot at this.

Lou, I think you have kind of a misunderstanding of how physical waves work and that's what's causing some of the issue.

One of the first things to remember is that we're not talking about waves of water. Sound doesn't really work like that. Imagine the air in front of a speaker. The speaker pushes the air particles directly in front of the speaker giving them force. Now these particles will travel away from the speaker at a fixed speed. Some particles will lose energy because they hit and transfer energy to other particles (friction) and as the pressure wave moves away from the speaker the number of energized particles will spread out (instead of X particles right in front of the speaker, it's X particles that have spread out all over the room). This means that if you had a microphone somewhere in the room, the amount of particles that are pushing up against it from the speaker will be reduced as you move it away from the speaker. The better the microphone the farther away from the speaker you can put it. "Sound" as we know it is determined solely by waves of these particles pushing up against your ear drums but any physical partical moving for any reason can cause the same effect. In the case of listening to the black hole, it's just a really good microphone.

Ok, so lets look at this same scenario in space. We have particles, just not a lot. So when we have our speaker out there, the speaker is doing the same thing just instead of pushing on billions of particles it's pushing on tens. On the plus side, these particles are MUCH less likely to bump into other particles and so will lose much less energy to friction so this means that particles are likely to carry farther. In any case, if a couple dozen particles hit your ear drum you'll never notice so none of this is detectable by human ears.

Nidal - as to your exploding TNT question, it really depends. If you have a non-directional microphone picking up any particle hits it receives, well most of what it gets will be particles flying around for other reasons - like the sun. But lets say you have a directional microphone aimed at a fairly quiet region of space and you light off your TNT from that direction. At that point you will be able to "hear" your TNT until friction reduces the wave signal to the point where your microphone can't distinguish it from the ambient noise coming from that section of space. To calculate it we'd need to know the db level of the blast, the db level of that section of space, the db loss due to friction in a 10 particle/ft^3 environment, and the sensitivity of the microphone. Achieving a distance measured in light years seems reasonable. I leave shipping the TNT out to that location as an excercise for the reader.

<edit: assumes parallel particles and no gravity wells>
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby The Gunslinger » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:57 am

Jeremy, I appreciate the input but that's not my problem. :)

It hit me this morning... what was bothered me yesterday was the use of the word "particles", which I think includes atoms and ray particles. Or it might actually refer only to ray particles, not atoms, at least when were speaking about atomic level objects. Because are proton, neutrons, and electrons essentially particles of an atom, or am I mis-applying the word only in this statement?

So regarding the 2 standards I posted, #1 was standard soundwaves via matter, and #2 soundwaves via particles of gamma rays, x-rays, etc. Which is impossible... and this is what hit me this morning... the rays travel about the speed of light and sound in space is about 300 mph, as per one of the sites that Ken linked. Since rays travel WAY faster than soundwaves, I HIGHLY doubt soundwaves can travel on ray particles...only atomic matter.

All you guys had to say is that space's near vacuum is filled with random atoms of various gases that average about 10 atoms per cubic cm. Its inaccurate to use the word particles, and my concern was justified.

I find it ironic because Jarrett accused me of not listening, and the opposite is true. And Ken accused me of twisting stuff around, when in his mind, if my post doesn't start with, "I'm sorry... you guys are right, and I'm wrong" then he doesn't acknowledge what I'm trying to grasp at.

You have to remember the definition of soundwaves.... the compression of atoms, which cause said atoms to continuously collide with other atoms in a ripple effect. Secondly, you have to keep in mind that everyone acknowledges that sound waves dissipate. They don't infinitely continue. As Jeremy points out, friction, or the collision with other atoms, caused the consequential collisions to impact with lesser and lesser force.

My last post to Ronen is basically asking, at what point does a soundwave dissipate? I *think* it's when an atom stops colliding with other atoms, at least in close enough proximity to the previous collision to still constitute a continuous soundwave. Again, by definition, I don't think you can have a soundwave of 1 atom, unless it's the 1st atom that gets moved and picked up by a super-sensitive-atomic microphone.

Please look at the 2nd site Ken posted, and the same one I did as well. I've underlined the poignant statements, and italicized some comments I inserted...

Quote:
"Sound waves are waves or ripples of pressure traveling through a gas," Fabian said. "Displace some nearby particles by pushing -- say the membrane of a loudspeaker -- so there's a pressure peak, and those particles will push on particles further out and so on. The result is that the pressure peak moves outward, although no individual particle actually goes very far from its original position." [This one hints that the last set of atoms that get hit would be the point of dissipation, right? Plus he's calling the gas atoms: particles. Doh!]

...

As the pressure peaks travel outward from the cavities around the black hole, collisions occur between atoms in the gas, generating X-rays that reveal a concentric ring pattern. [This is what we *saw* (rays created by the soundwaves), not *heard* (soundwaves)] Being a form of light, X-rays can traverse the universe sans any medium, and these are what Chandra detected.

The sound waves rapidly die out, their energy converted to heat. So in essence the B-flat was seen, not heard, from 250 million light-years away. [In that grand scale, how far did the waves go to "rapidly die out" is an interesting question.]

:)

Again, I highly doubt that the pressure wave/soundwave/collision of particles that constitutes sound can travel via a medium of ray particles. Can anyone find an article online that says otherwise? Inquirying minds want to know. I didn't make an extensive search yesterday, but the few Ken & I linked didn't address this question. Does Hawking?

Thanks
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby Emperors Reckoning » Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:43 am

Not really accurate to use the term "ray particles", although "rays/particles" would certainly do the trick.

We do hear sound through space. We do not hear mechanically-propagated sounds, because none or our mechanically-propagated sound sensors, notably human ears, are sensitive enough to detect it. (Or, the argument could be made that our ears CAN detect it, but our neural sensorium is not calibrated to interpret it.

We hear things from space all the time, but are required to detect them with radio, and other wave receptors.

Is it capital-S Sound? Probable not, but there is insufficient evidence to thouroughly disprove it. Is it "sounds"? Certainly, until some more precise term is agreed upon.

This thread is hilarious. It's good to see the old venom isn't gone.
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:32 am

Quote:
My last post to Ronen is basically asking, at what point does a soundwave dissipate? I *think* it's when an atom stops colliding with other atoms, at least in close enough proximity to the previous collision to still constitute a continuous soundwave. Again, by definition, I don't think you can have a soundwave of 1 atom, unless it's the 1st atom that gets moved and picked up by a super-sensitive-atomic microphone.
You're still failing to grasp the concept of a 'wave'.

So long as ANY particles continue to carry energy, the wave is present.

It's not the number of particles, it's the presence of ENERGY. Particles are just one means through which energy travels.

Again, the distinction between "seeing" and "hearing" waves that you can neither see nor hear is arbitrary and artificial. Human scientists tend to translate these waves into visual data, because human beings are visual creatures. But they could just as easily (and often do) translate these waves into audio data.

Your fascination with whether or not the article in question uses the word "see" or "hear" only reflects on YOUR biases.
Quote:
Again, I highly doubt that the pressure wave/soundwave/collision of particles that constitutes sound can travel via a medium of ray particles. Can anyone find an article online that says otherwise? Inquirying minds want to know.
Not only CAN they, but you can go out and purchase one of the amazing machines that enables your human ear to 'hear' these ray/particles.

It's called a "radio".

=====

Since you're enamored with the arbitrary distinction (which, apparently, you are authorized to enforce -- the very thing that Jarrett previously critiqued you for), maybe you should try to actually define the distinction FIRST, rather than get called for being wrong a half-dozen times, and then rather self-righteously explaining (still badly) to people what it is you "really mean".

PS: Do you think that lots of people are consistently not listening to you? Or do you think it's more likely that you're not very clear about what it is you're trying to say or ask?

Either way, this 'transfer of information' thing might work better if you didn't have such a giant chip on your shoulder, and a knee-jerk tendency to reject out-of-hand anything said or written by someone you don't like
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby The Gunslinger » Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:14 am

Does this help Ken?...
Quote:
So long as ANY particles continue to carry energy, the wave is present.

It's not the number of particles, it's the presence of ENERGY. Particles are just one means through which energy travels.

Soundwaves dissipate, correct? So when does it dissipate? When the last atom stops colliding? Or how does that energy dissipate into heat, as per the websites we referenced? Savaughn mentioned that when the atoms collide, they lose some energy, so it must reach a certain point when it's too weak and dissipates. That's all I'm asking.

Quote:
Again, the distinction between "seeing" and "hearing" waves that you can neither see nor hear is arbitrary and artificial.
You need to re-read that article Ken. The collision of the gas atoms that constituted the soundwave sparked off x-rays as a bi-product. We saw the bi-product, Asshole. The soundwave via the gas and the rays are 2 separate entities. Who's not listening/reading, Asshole?

Quote:
It's called a "radio".
As I understand it, radiowaves are the "morse code" which radios translate into soundwaves, Asshole.

I challenge you to link 1 website that explains how soundwaves (collision of particles to create pressure peaks that expand out as soundwaves at the speed of 300-700+ mph) travel via the medium of radio/x/gamma/photon rays which travel the speed of light (~300,000 miles per sec?), Asshole. I can find a lot of sites that say sound travels via atoms, even in the near vacuum of space, but not via rays, Asshole
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:44 am

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt." -- Mark Twain
Quote:
Soundwaves dissipate, correct? So when does it dissipate? When the last atom stops colliding? Or how does that energy dissipate into heat, as per the websites we referenced? Savaughn mentioned that when the atoms collide, they lose some energy, so it must reach a certain point when it's too weak and dissipates. That's all I'm asking.

Yes. When they lose energy. When the last atom(s) -- because they go in all directions -- stop moving entirely.

There is also a point at which they lose enough energy that they are subsumed into the static "background noise" of the universe.

These are two different things, but there are (theoretical) ways to compensate for the effects of each of them and still 'hear' a sound from a great distance.
Quote:
You need to re-read that article Ken. The collision of the gas atoms that constituted the soundwave sparked off x-rays as a bi-product. We saw the bi-product, Asshole. The soundwave via the gas and the rays are 2 separate entities. Who's not listening/reading, Asshole?
You're still not understanding the concept of a wave. X-rays are waves involving FAST-moving particles. They still operate as waves -- energy transmitted between particles.

You're still assuming there's a clear distinction between one type of wave and another. That's where your conceptualization falls apart.

Because your assumption is flawed, you see. All the logic in the world won't help if your underlying assumptions are wrong.
Quote:
As I understand it, radiowaves are the "morse code" which radios translate into soundwaves, Asshole.
Yes, that's the problem, isn't it? Your understanding of the mechanism is flawed.

There are a number of books that you can borrow/buy that would help illuminate these physical phenomena for you. Here's one (via Amazon): A Brief History of Time.

Here's another (again via Amazon): The Physics of Superheroes

Personally I like the second one better, and it also explains basic physical properties and phenomenon more comprehensively than Hawking's book. And it has illustrations and examples taken from comic books! Hard to beat that :p

But on the other hand, Hawking does much more astrophysics. Either way, if you're going to prove me "wrong", try learning the basics of the theory first.
Quote:
I challenge you to link 1 website that explains how soundwaves (collision of particles to create pressure peaks that expand out as soundwaves at the speed of 300-700+ mph) travel via the medium of radio/x/gamma/photon rays which travel the speed of light (~300,000 miles per sec?), Asshole. I can find a lot of sites that say sound travels via atoms, even in the near vacuum of space, but not via rays, Asshole.
Okay, I'll play your silly game.

Query: Do you even understand the process of hearing?

It's the sensory transduction of mechanical vibration into neural signals, both the chemical and electrical variety of which are quite a bit faster than sound waves.

Here's one link (out of 1,020,000 on Google):
Sensory Transduction in the Ear

You can talk about 'modality' as well as 'transduction'.

Your brain interprets the electrical & chemical signals, not the sound waves. And in this case it's a dedicated transduction, not just a mere 'by-product'.

Being kind, I agree there's a difference between the sorts of waves that humans HEAR and the sorts of waves that humans SEE. But that's a product of the fact that human beings have TWO sorts of sensory organs that act as receptors for TWO different varieties of waves. Right now, however, you're making a far more sweeping (and inherently inaccurate) generalization, and in a very silly and arbitrary way, no less.

=====

Which is just sad. What it comes down to is that you're trying to interpret literally a non-scientific article written by a non-scientist (a science writer) about a phenomenon being described in non-specific terms by a scientist describing it to a non-scientist. Meanwhile you're ignoring (literally) a dozen or so people who have been trying to point out the flaws in your understanding, in more or less helpful ways.

The solution has been presented to you. Read a damn book. Learn WTF you're talking about before you spout off about it. There ARE answers out there, and you DON'T have to recreate them from scratch on your own. Other people have ALREADY thought through these things, tested them thoroughly, and provided a summary analyses for the rest of humanity (including you) -- in the form of books.

As for the rest -- there's really very little point in trying to torment you, is there. You're not only competely wrong, you don't even know it. There's no fun in that. :rolleyes

Let's try this again when you have a clue
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Re: The real 1st man in space & 1st to break sound barrier.

Postby The Gunslinger » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:06 am

Alright, time to return to this topic after being armed with a better understanding. :) Back to one of my original points...

Sound waves need atoms as a medium. They can't operate with photons as a medium because sound travels anywhere from 300 mph in space's extreme thin gas medium of about 10 gas atoms per cubic centimeter, to more than 700 mph at sea level, to even faster underwater. Photons travel 670,616,629.384 miles per hour, or almost one foot per nanosecond.

To demonstate, you have 1,000,000 sheets of paper wizzing by you, all representing a stream of photons travelling their usual speed. You have the fastest handwriting known to man... you almost break the sound barrier, representing a loudspeaker trying to play music, but you're no where near fast enough to write anything on any one, or multiple pieces of paper because they're about 958,023 times faster than you are! :lol

Soundwaves, defined as "a mechanical wave which results from the longitudinal motion of the particles of the medium through which the sound wave is moving" (full definition here), need a medium that's relatively stationary enough for the particles/atoms to vibrate.

Sound & radiation. Both are waves. Sound travels via matter, which always has mass. Radiation/photons are their own waves, with apparently no mass.

Sound waves are measured by the frequency of the collision of the atoms they travel by.

Photons are their own waves, are energy, not matter (at the moment), which are either absorbed, or deflected by other atoms, and maybe even by other photons. Light rays can cancel each other out if their frequencies either overlap each other, or directly opposite each other... I can't remember. Not sure exactly what goes on when they "cancel each other out".

After a quick review of the posts on this page, my other issue was "when does a sound wave dissipate", which doesn't matter to me now, and I think it was supposed to prove another point, which I don't care to look into now.

I'm just happy to say what I did above. Now I can sleep tonight. Finally. ;)

Does it jive though? I think so
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