It's time to Restore Truthiness to America!

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Re: It's time to Restore Truthiness to America!

Postby subversive » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:46 am

spacewolfjack wrote:
Green energy policy isn't what's keeping the American people down, it's laziness, an entitlement mindset, and lack of foresight. And I don't mean entitlement from the government.


Right. Laziness, from the most powerful economy on Earth. Entitlements, from a people who pride themselves on earning what they get. Lack of foresight - how so? By mandating so-called green energy without considering the other fallout, i.e., the economic and social ramifications? Yes, let's shutter all the coal plants and plant wind farms and solar panels. And when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow, too bad, so sad, no power for you. How's this for lack of foresight? Gimme a break. It needs to be phased in slowly.

Depends entirely on how you define the most powerful economy on earth. Our (including Canada, as up here it's just a slightly more under control situation) economic power is currently based on the hard work of our grandparents (or for some of us, our parents). We've been gradually (and more recently very quickly) funneling all the wealth that they created out of the country for many years, primarily to China. That wasn't done by left wingers, it was done by politicians of both stripes who were bought off by business interests who wanted to make stuff cheaper than they could here without paying for it. The reason you can't find a job right now has nothing to do with Obama, Reid and Pelosi. The real jobs were long gone well before they came in. Pointing fingers there just means you haven't done your homework.

Do some research into the standard of living and real income since the 50s, and especially since the 80s. It hasn't increased, it's gone down. The vast majority of people are earning less in terms of inflation adjusted dollars than they did in 1970. The legacy of being the most powerful economy on earth is based on history. Very few of the people in the workforce today actually played any part in making things that way, which leads me into the next bit: entitlement.

My parents generation was shocked when suddenly their hard work no longer guaranteed them a place at the table. Their parents worked hard to make the US the greatest country on earth, and they reaped the benefits. Then good jobs started going away, slowly at first, but now far more quickly. Nothing real gets made here anymore, yet people still live like we're bringing money into the country. We're not. Well, you're not. Canada still is a resource based economy, which is part of the reason I'm here now. Unlike the US, we're selling stuff TO China.

The point is that Americans got used to living large, and for most of them, the concept of tightening the belt and living within their means was simply too foreign to grasp. The economy had grown for decades, with a few bumps along the way, so of course you're entitled to your nice car and your expensive TV and everything else. The economy would catch up. But due to decisions made long before Obama was even considering politics as a career, it's all based on spending granpa's money. And, more recently, spending China's money.

Sure, a lot of your friends may claim that they pride themselves on earning what they get. Some of them actually may. But most of the people in the US have leveraged their houses or their credit cards to get what they want, and whine and complain when hard work rears its ugly head, slack off whenever they have the chance, and frankly, don't take a whole lot of pride in a job well done anymore. As a whole, the once justifiably proud American people have turned into a bunch of whiny douches who simply won't see past their own noses. I say that as an American who got fed up with the whole fucking country and left.

Last I checked, there hasn't been a single coal plant shuttered. We'll never see eye to eye on climate change, so I know that won't be a persuasive argument in favor of lower emission energy. But the fact of the matter is that, like every other bit of entitlement that Americans feel, cheap energy is the exception to the way most people live. Everyone wants to drive their big car (or SUV) to work from the suburbs, but no one wants to deal with the fact that oil is getting harder and more expensive to find. Now we have to drill in the deep sea, and risk destroying the ecology of massive areas just to feed that habit. So does it suck that power is now more expensive right when everyone's getting hit the hardest? Yes. To fucking bad. You, turn off a few lights, put on a sweater or turn off the A/C, tighten the belt and do what's right. If necessary, you tax the rich to make sure the poor don't freeze to death during the transition.

As for phasing in slowly, bullshit. Economy of scale has always been the best driving force for reducing prices. Like you said in your rant on medicine, we do our best work when there's money to be made. Yes, mistakes get made, but that's how we learn from them to do it better next time.

spacewolfjack wrote: I think its funny, coming from a newly-minted Canadian. What heats your home in winter - geothermal?

Mostly wood, actually, though we're looking into retrofitting Geo-exchange. Not sure how well that's going to work on a house built in the 80s. I think you'd be surprised at how I'm living up here. Aside from my 12 hour wait for penicillin (oh, wait... that doesn't actually happen), Canada is awesome.
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Re: It's time to Restore Truthiness to America!

Postby elrodogg » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:58 am

spacewolfjack wrote:Quit drinking the DailyKOS Kool-Aid and read a few more sources, like Fox, National Review, and the Wall Street Journal. Sheesh.


Nah, I'll stick to the Journal of the American Medical Association, New England Journal of Medicine, Journal of Clinical Oncology, as well as other medical journals and law reviews. I could argue with you, but what's the point? Fox news knows far more about medicine than the AMA and they've taught you everything you need to know. :bash:
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Re: It's time to Restore Truthiness to America!

Postby Guy In Suit » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:45 am

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Re: It's time to Restore Truthiness to America!

Postby WickerNipple » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:22 pm

spacewolfjack wrote:Because the Pelosi/Reid/Obama administration tanked the economy and crashed the job market. Because we want a gov't in place that will allow us to live on our own and NOT be on assistance to survive. My family and I wouldn't be able to make it if we weren't on it right now. Simple fact. The $26k per year I lost in net income thanks to the economic crash makes a difference. So we elect guys who know how to run a country, and then the jobs come back, and we can be independent again. Make sense?


It would make more sense if the crash you're blaming everything didn't pre-date the current administration. Or if the bailout wasn't a part of the prior administration. Or if you weren't collecting a gov't check from before Obama was even elected.

My trouble with the whole tea party movement is two fold: 1) it rages about welfare and entitlement while actually being the new welfare class on just about every level and 2) it's focus of blame is very poor and is ultimately just politically minded. I won't even touch on the astro-turfed elements.

Seriously: If you guys had cared about the constitution when the patriot act was passed, I might believe you. If you guys had said anything other that waving a flag when we spent trillions on a pointless war, I might think you cared about the economy. If you added anything constructive to the debate or proposed solutions, I might listen.

But hey, be glad some of us up here still have jobs and pay our taxes so we can take care of all the people just like you! :)
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Re: It's time to Restore Truthiness to America!

Postby spacewolfjack » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:35 pm

Sub - Cheap energy made this country what it is. I sell Chinese imports for a living. Our inflation adjusted wages have come down because of new competition in the labor market overseas. The infrastructures of most of the major economies of the world were destroyed in WW2. So, of course we had an awesome economy - no one else had the stuff to make stuff. Once Japan and Europe came back on line, we had to adjust. Problem was the unions didn't see it that way. So the rich owners said screw you, we're sending your jobs overseas, since you won't be reasonable and competitive. What should they do - bankrupt their companies? It doesn't work that way. Companies exist to make money, and they will do what they have to in order to make money. And who are you leftists to tell me I can't have access to cheap energy? I have to spend more just because you say so? BS. You subsidize me, then. You on the Left should pay for the difference between the green energy and the non-green. I could live with that compromise. Agreed? Why should I pay for something I don't want, while there is a less expensive alternative? Why not focus on finding better ways to extract the energy from petroleum, coal, and hydrogen (the most glorious fuel of all) instead of all this wind turbine, solar, and nuclear fission stuff?

Ronen - Obamacare should be aborted, and I predict it will be. It's about business, not medicine. Who's going to pay for it? You guys never see that. Ever. Feel free to read the academics, but try stepping out in the real world and looking at the business costs. Academics are insulated from those. The predictions of the Right are already materializing about Obamacare, with policies getting eliminated and dropped, and costs going up. Obamacare will be repealed - its only a matter of time.

Wicker - Not a pointless war, either of them. We removed a brutal dictator in Iraq, and are trying to set up a democracy there. We are trying to set up a democracy in Afghanistan. Does it occur to you that the only way to eliminate Islamic extremism is to Westernize them? With American allies to buffer Iran, and help keep Saudi Arabia in line, there would be less likelihood of extremists and they would eventually fade out. Both wars have a point in the long term. And those of us in the Tea Party movement want gov't reformed top to bottom. I have a job, and I did pay taxes, but the skewed tax laws say I get $9000 of your money back in April. So thanks for that. Maybe one day you will realize we need something like a FairTax and not this corrupted income tax system we have. Until then, I am going to take advantage of it, like every other red-blooded American who had their good job taken away. And I didn't collect anything welfare-wise until Pelosi/Reid (2006 elections) were in power. In fact, I paid taxes in both 2006 and 2007, when I had a decent job. Congress write the appropriations bills, you know. Pelosi/Reid ruined the country. Obama is helping. And in November, the people will speak. :orc thumb:
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Re: It's time to Restore Truthiness to America!

Postby Guy In Suit » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:49 pm

spacewolfjack wrote:I sell Chinese imports for a living.


You work at Walmart?
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Re: It's time to Restore Truthiness to America!

Postby subversive » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:19 pm

spacewolfjack wrote:You subsidize me, then.

You don't really need someone to point out that the liberal centers of the US DO subsidize the rest of the country with their disproportionate per capita contributions to both the economy and the country's tax revenue, do you? I'll tell you what. I'll pay for the green energy if you'll pay for the wars you seem to like so much. Oh, wait. You can't because it's too hard to find a good paying job because the Obama-Ried-Pelosi boogeymen performed some kind of time travel mojo and ruined the economy before they were in office. Obviously it has nothing to do with your bosses and the rest of the American people selling out the country by lacking foresight and buying and selling cheap shit produced everywhere but the US instead of tightening the belt and investing at home.* And, while I am not trying to get personal here, it's a little bit convenient that your personal victimhood at the hands of the O-R-M boogey-entity coincides with years of personal instability due to mental health problems that you yourself have said caused you to lose jobs. If you want to improve your lot, maybe try taking some college courses (conveniently subsidized by Liberal tax dollars) and learning something that people need? I suppose it's much easier to just cast a rage-ballot in November and point fingers. But I can tell you, no ballot ever got me a job. However, a ballot did help get my education subsidized, and I'm still working.

Yes: cheap energy made the US reliant on cheap energy, while other countries were learning how to be productive without it. That's a big part of the reason the US is screwed as energy costs go up. And energy costs are going up no matter what the democrats or republicans do. When you can't stick a shovel in the sand to get a gusher anymore, exploration and extraction costs necessarily go up. The harder it is to get it out, the more expensive it gets. Not rocket science.

* by the way: I'm complicit in that too. However, I've since come around, and realized that the best way to improve my lot is not to buy loads of cheap shit on credit, but to save my money and only buy what I need, as locally as possible, even if that means spending more money.
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Re: It's time to Restore Truthiness to America!

Postby elrodogg » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:51 pm

spacewolfjack wrote:Ronen - Obamacare should be aborted, and I predict it will be. It's about business, not medicine. Who's going to pay for it? You guys never see that. Ever. Feel free to read the academics, but try stepping out in the real world and looking at the business costs. Academics are insulated from those. The predictions of the Right are already materializing about Obamacare, with policies getting eliminated and dropped, and costs going up. Obamacare will be repealed - its only a matter of time.


:lol: Dude you are like a comic book character or something. I am constantly amazed that blather on and on regardless of how wrong you are.
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Re: It's time to Restore Truthiness to America!

Postby spacewolfjack » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:32 pm

Ronen - We'll see. There are a lot of serious-minded people around this country who believe this whole bill was a sham to start with. Look at the way it was passed. If it was such a shining example, why not let it be disseminated before the vote? Why have the Speaker say we have to pass it to see what's in it? Why were so many other laws (like the new $600 taxable purchase law, or the gold buying law) snuck into a health-care bill? It's simple, really - if the Democrats really had a decent bill that addressed the problem, it would have passed the smell test easily and been favored. But, they knew they had a stinker, and so they ramrodded it through. All they did was a bunch of hocus-pocus with accounting. They say the insurance guys have to use more premium money for patient care. So, they raise premiums and offer less services to make the margins up. Try getting hold of a customer service rep at a private insurance company if this goes through to 2014. It'll be like that credit card commercial with the Russian guy named Peggy. Or a Hindu named Bob. They say the doctors will get reimbursed less from the gov't plans. So the doctors take on less gov't patients, meaning the poor (who this was supposed to help) all pile onto a smaller pool of providers and cause wait times to go up. They mandate that states add to their Medicaid rolls, but don't offer compensation. So, where does that money come from? Well, that means more taxes, and we all know how good taxes are for an economy. They're cutting back on the Medicare Advantage private plans that a lot of seniors use for their care. I thought this bill was supposed to help seniors? C'mon, man, it's common sense. I have to ask - what do you do for a living? I'll wager its not private sector.

Where's Nidal when I need him? I know he doesn't like me much, and I know he'll just tell me I'm beating my head against the liberal wall, but criminy, does no one there understand just how damaging this bill is? Or do we have to flush our country down the leftist toilet and realize that all we have left are the little pieces of liberal shit floating in the bowl?
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Re: It's time to Restore Truthiness to America!

Postby WickerNipple » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:29 pm

Nidal lost interest in these discussions after TARP money was the only way he could pay the rent.
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