New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

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New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:23 pm

graphics8.nytimes.com/pac...cision.pdf

New Jersey moves out of the Dark Ages, the state Supremes today decided 4-3 that the state constitution DOES prohibit the state from denying gay couples the same rights and benefits as straight couples -- but stayed mute about whether the state was required to allow gay couples to legally marry.

The kicker?

The 3 "dissenters" all agreed that the constitution DOES prohibit the state from denying gay couples rights/benefits. They dissented because they thought that the state WAS constitutionally required to allow gay couples the right to legally marry.

In other words, 7 out of 7 state supremes agree, NJ cannot deny gay couples rights/benefits afforded to straight couples.

By the way, having lived through a similar (blissful!) experience in Hawaii, I'm looking forward to the so-called 'loving' religious-type Hatemongers flocking to New Jersey in record numbers come 2008, to try and get a constitutional amendment passed that makes it okay to hate on t3h Gay again. :rolleyes

Anti-miscegenation legislation was bigoted, hateful, backward, etc. This is the exact same thing.

Now I look forward with great anticipation to the stupid "slippery slope" arguments about polyamory, NAMBLA, and sheep-lovin'
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby VectorAWX3 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:27 pm

Hey.. ain't nothin' wrong with sheep-lovin'. :p

I'm firmly in the camp or our Dear Departed King Poffypoffa, who decreed that marriage should be a social and not legal ceremony. You want to marry a horse? Go for it. throw the biggest bash you can and knock yourself out. You just don't get a tax break for it. You want someone to inherit your shit when you die? Great. Put it in writing. Give it to a man, woman, or that tranny that can't figure out which washroom to go into.
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:29 pm

Sure, if you could convince people to give up the legal benefits of marriage across the board, then I'm all for it, too.

I'm happy to go "both ways", though ;) All 1500+ rights/benefits for all married couples, or none for all
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby mauleed » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:31 pm

Hey, finally an issue where Ken and I share an opinion! But I'm sure Ken can still find a way to sling mud at me anyway.

The real solution here is that no one should be allowed to get (legally) married. The whole institution is horribly outdated and victimizes half the people who enter into it.

(so say'eth the man that gets married in, let me check, 66 days)
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby VectorAWX3 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:42 pm

Ed, just spell your name wrong on the marriage certificate.. or sign it left-handed. Then, when you want out, say it wasn't you.

Ken, I'm all for getting rid of all 1500 benefits. The big one? Medical! But the wife, prior to being married to me, received plenty of medical from NY state. Effectively, I paid for it anyway, since I'm one of those high-taxed chumps. Other than that, what else would truly concern people (which couldn't be taken care of in a simple PDF file available on the state website?)
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:43 pm

Wow, do you still not get it, Ed?

I thought I'd already explained to you that I despise you, rather thoroughly and absolutely. This, by the way, pretty much obviates any social pressure I might otherwise feel to be civil or respectful to you -- given as how you've rather gleefully gone out of your way to ensure that you deserve neither civility nor respect.

Given that your monkey-antics amuse so many of the club members, I've usually found it easier just to ignore you, because you enjoy being fed when you troll. But the set-up's so easy, so why not?
Quote:
The real solution here is that no one should be allowed to get (legally) married. The whole institution is horribly outdated and victimizes half the people who enter into it.
Poor Ed, poor victimized Ed. :rolleyes
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby VectorAWX3 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:44 pm

You think Ed's victimized? You should see his poor wife. :p
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:50 pm

Nidal: Rights tied to marriage.

Federal rights:
* Access to Military Stores
* Assumption of Spouses Pension
* Bereavement Leave
* Immigration
* Insurance Breaks
* Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner
* Sick Leave to Care for Partner
* Social Security Survivor Benefits
* Tax Breaks
* Veterans Discounts
* Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison

State rights:
* Assumption of Spouses Pension
* Automatic Inheritance
* Automatic Housing Lease Transfer
* Bereavement Leave
* Burial Determination
* Child Custody
* Crime Victims Recovery Benefits
* Divorce Protections
* Domestic Violence Protection
* Exemption from Property Tax on Partners Death
* Immunity from Testifying Against Spouse
* Insurance Breaks
* Joint Adoption and Foster Care
* Joint Bankruptcy
* Joint Parenting (Insurance Coverage, School Records)
* Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner
* Certain Property Rights
* Reduced Rate Memberships
* Sick Leave to Care for Partner
* Visitation of Partners Children
* Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison
* Wrongful Death (Loss of Consort) Benefits

There are in total 1049 Federal rights (currently), and approximately 300-500 additional rights per state. All part of the 'package deal' when you sign the marriage license.

You literally CANNOT gain certain of these rights outside of marriage. You can gain about 85% of them, given the time and money, but here's the thing:

Acquiring Marriage license: $15-75 and a few days.

Acquiring 85% of rights, without marriage: $25,000+ and several years

======

It's more than just the damn spouses stealing the damn taxpayer dollars and the damn insurance benefits. :rolleyes
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby VectorAWX3 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:21 pm

Federal rights:
* Access to Military Stores - Pay tax like the rest of us
* Assumption of Spouses Pension - When you sign up for the pension, put in the name of a beneficiary
* Bereavement Leave - vacation days/sick days/understanding boss
* Immigration - you can file a petition regardless of marriage
* Insurance Breaks - why? Pay like everyone else.
* Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner - fill something out once. Done.
* Sick Leave to Care for Partner - vacation days/sick days/understanding boss

* Social Security Survivor Benefits - When you sign up, put in the name of a beneficiary
* Tax Breaks - whole kettle of fish. I say take them away.
* Veterans Discounts - gone.
* Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison - if partner agrees, you can visit. easy.

State rights:
* Assumption of Spouses Pension When you sign up for the pension, put in the name of a beneficiary
* Automatic Inheritance - fill out piece will
* Automatic Housing Lease Transfer - why? Put both names on the lease.
* Bereavemet Leave - vacation days/sick days/understanding boss

* Burial Determination - in the will
* Child Custody - go by biology
* Crime Victims Recovery Benefits -in the will
* Divorce Protections - no marriage, no divorce
* Domestic Violence Protection - marriage is done!
* Exemption from Property Tax on Partners Death - for transfer of title? Put a death/inheritance clause in the real-estate laws, regardless of marriage
* Immunity from Testifying Against Spouse - why? If they're guilty, they're guilty.
* Insurance Breaks - why? Pay like the rest.
* Joint Adoption and Foster Care - why does that matter? Many states allow gay couples to adopt wihtout marriage, and that works fine.
* Joint Bankruptcy - why? File twice if need be.
* Joint Parenting (Insurance Coverage, School Records) - go by biology
* Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner - sign a piece of paper, or throw it into a will type document
* Certain Property Rights - put it on paper
* Reduced Rate Memberships - why? Pay like the rest, or buy as a "group"
* Sick Leave to Care for Partner - vacation days/sick days/understanding boss

* Visitation of Partners Children - go by biology (not sure I understand what this one means)
* Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison - if prisoner/patient consets, you can visit. No need for marriage.
* Wrongful Death (Loss of Consort) Benefits - buy life insurance.


Yes, I've only skimmed over the list, but most of these can be handled with just a bit of extra effort (writing a will, signing some papers). Getting married requires a bit of legwork, as is. Certainly not more than filling out a few legal documents (which should be easy to understand and readily available). And once this happens, we'll all be free to marry men, women, groups, whatever.

Take any of these (pick one) and tell me why it can't be handled any other way than marriage. Marriage apprears to me to be a very complicated legal contract full of bulletpoints most people don't even think about. Sure, it's easy, but easy isn't always good.

Imagine a DMV type office where you would walk in with someone, check off boxes "Visitation rights? Check. Medical Decisions? Check. Property Rights? Check." and you'd be done.

Hell, what if you live with someone, don't want to get married, but want to leave them your house when you die or want them to make medical decisions for you when you're in a coma anyway? And what if they're just a friend, and not a spouse? What if you want them to take care of your young kids when you die? Why should it be any more difficult for you than it is for a married couple, gay or straight?
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby warmongerclub » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:28 pm

So wait, Nidal and Ed are against marraige benefits, yet they are both repeat offenders? I'm confused.
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