New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby Bauhaus » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:40 am

Don't confuse the natural desire of the individuals with legality (and criminality). It's perfectly reasonable to argue that all sorts of sexually "deviant" and "criminal" activities are natural. (Whether or not it's inherited or the result of a virus doesn't much matter.)

It's also been demonstrated that behavior is also culturally influenced to bias certain sexual practices. It's perfectly legal to marry a 14 year old, have multiple wives, have sex with sheep or be crushed with stones for committing adultery in many parts of the world.

In a perfect world we might allow everyone to engage in sex and form relationships as they see fit as long as it doesn't harm others (unless they really, really want to be harmed).
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby -Thrax » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:11 am

Quote:
It's perfectly reasonable to argue that all sorts of sexually "deviant" and "criminal" activities are natural.


Sure. Killing people, for example. That's natural. Been happening ever since people have been around. Doesn't mean everyone should let it happen. But can we really liken homosexuality or other alternate sexual orientations to this? Only by engaging in the most severe of rhetorical contortions. As Hokiegamer implied -- a child and an adult will always show a power imbalance, and I have no problem generalizing when it comes to protecting children in this way. The current legal definitions of sexual consent seem fairly commonsense to me, although I have not done a scientific study to determine at what age children actually become sexually responsible. Me, I'm STILL not sexually responsible, and I'm almost 30!

Quote:
It's also been demonstrated that behavior is also culturally influenced to bias certain sexual practices. It's perfectly legal to marry a 14 year old, have multiple wives, have sex with sheep or be crushed with stones for committing adultery in many parts of the world.


Question: do you really -- really -- want to live in any of these places? Especially that last part. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to validate. I'm NOT arguing for cultural relativity here -- just because Saudi Arabia forces women to wear the everything-but-the-eyes veil doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. Just the opposite: I'm proud that most Western democracies are becoming more LGTBQ-friendly. I think it's a step in the right direction. Now, if you're arguing that homosexuality DOESN'T occur "naturally" in these other societies, that is more or less insane. I personally know three gay Iranian men, none of whom could remain there, for fear of threats to their lives. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. A society also doesn't need to be encouraging of it in order for it to come up.

Quote:
unless they really, really want to be harmed


Again, consenting adults! ;)

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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby Bauhaus » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:55 pm

On the one hand, there's the individual. We're all different and have a wide range of prediclections.

There seems to be lots of opinions being expressed about who a person is. We talk about "choice" as if there is one or "predestination" as if we were.

The evidence tends to support that there are homosexuals and heterosexuals who don't have any choice at all. (I for one can't see myself with a man.) Yet there are societies where homosexuality is more acceptable, that does promote a higher level of "experimentation" in alternative sexual practices. We can't all then be predestined to be one way or another.

Society also imposes it's own moral values. I would prefer if it didn't. Society also looks out for people. I'm glad that they do. At what age we become consenting adults is a question we leave up to each state. Likewise with harm. But for the acts of adult heterosexuals and homosexuals to be "judged" one way or the other - well I'd rather government stay out of the bedroom (and pass laws that support two people living together based on their commitment, regardless of sex.)
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby -hokiegamer » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:17 pm

Yeah, that's what some of the science lately has been showing. That there are some people who are physiologically predisposed to find the same sex attractive. Their brains are simply wired that way. Does that mean they won't ever hop in the sack with a member of the opposite sex? No. But it does mean that the whole time they are doing it, it might feel a little off.

The strange thing about the research is that some things that people have assumed were a given, and not separable traits passed down via Mendellian inheritance, are quite variable. Finding members of the opposite sex attractive seems to be one of those traits, but it doesn't quite follow the same routine as say the genetic traits for sickle cell anemia. But it appears that it can be passed down along those lines for the same reasons: even though it might mess up some kids in a generation it helps the species as a whole survive.

Now in practical terms, it doesn't mean much in regards to this discussion (consenting adults so who cares what they do), but I thought it would be useful to point out that there really are people who are born wired that way.

I forget which actress said it, but when she was asked about Hetero/Homo behavior in the bedroom her response was to blow it off and ignore the question. When the interviewer pushed again, she replied:

What does it matter? Why are anyone's opinions on the different methods of f***ing important?

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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby warmongerclub » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:22 pm

Quote:
I for one can't see myself with a man


Dave- have you tried a mirrored headboard?
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Re: New Jersey and the "Culture Wars"

Postby mauleed » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:26 pm

Wasn't that Nigella, the british cooking lady?
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