The declassified part of the NIE, for those interested

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Re: The declassified part of the NIE, for those interested

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:48 am

Hem.

Splitting the difference....

While Gino is correct about the logistics of such a conflict, in political/diplomatic terms, what the US *could* do, before it locked most of its army into Iraq, was threaten a projection of power that would force virtually every country in the world to go on the defensive. Including China, or Russia.

That's one heck of a bargaining position.

But of course, that's one of the reasons it's the world's biggest Superpower. ;)
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Re: The declassified part of the NIE, for those interested

Postby -Dresnar » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:38 am

There is a viable way out of Iraqi. It starts in another three weeks. Both the House and Senate need to be taken out of Republican hands. This will be touted as a "revoulution" and seen as a shift in the will of the American public. This shift can be portrayed and will be seen as America "coming to its senses" after the 911 tragedy.

From 2006 to 2008 the new govt. needs to agressivly investigate circumstances for the war in Iraq, actions during Iraq, propose a comprehensive plan for withdrawl. The proposal for withdrawl will be irrelevant as long as the executive remains the same, and hence can be overly generous toward Iraqi. Best result of the investigations would be impeachment procedings that fail to impeach but clearly shake a threating finger toward an humble and borken G.W.(something he portrays well)

In 2008 the revolution continues and the executive falls in the hands of the Dem party. Guarantee there will be parties had around the world. This new leader can blame the whole thing on an America gone mad with loss over the tragedy of 911, its grief stricken sensibility taken advantage of by warmongers and immoral capitalists, clearly placing the fault of the entire situation on the extremists. This new leader will be in a position to aproach the world community in a way our current leadership could never hope to achieve. An appeal could be made to hand over the stewardship of Iraqi to a coalition of troops acceptable to the current Iraqi govt for a time period determined by the Iraqi govt. Wether or not this goal is achieved is irrelevant as the new leader of the new govt can simply say we must leave as we are doing much more harm than good. By stating the exact opposite of our current policy a new leader will actually gain credibility rather than lose it. I believe that in this scenerio the global community may step up, especially mid eastern countries which have an interest in a stable Iraq.

The only chance I see for a acceptable resolution to this situation is by completly changing the leadership in our govt. A new leadership will be able to completly absolve itself of the wrong doing of the current govt. Without this absolution there is no chance for a change of our current reputation on the world stage.
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Re: The declassified part of the NIE, for those interested

Postby VectorAWX3 » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:24 pm

Ken, don't take offense with any of what I'm saying.. I mean welll. :)

But in response to your points (which I find very interesting--and would normally compel me to change my mind, were I living in an ideal world, which I'm not):

Quote:
It absolutely mystifies me that you would continue to rationalize any of this away. At what point do we reach the straw/breaking point on your camel's back? What further outrages need to be visited upon you and yours -- and how directly do they have to be visited upon you?
I thought "further" meant "more". There have been NO outrages commited against me and mine, directly or indirectly. Sorry, Jose Padilla is not "my brother". And being an Arab (and I keep telling people this) doesn't make me care about other Arabs. If Arabs did care about other Arabs, they wouldn't be killing each other left and right at every opportunity. It's easy for Westerners to lump us all together, but that's about as accurate as lumping Japanese and Koreans together.

Quote:
What's not so surprising is your ability to turn everything into a binary opposition completely unrelated to conditions in the Real World. I'm not making any moral claims to black/white, right/wrong. I'm making a very clear distinction between "my civil liberties are being protected", and "my civil liberties are being stripped away".
Why is it surprising? My civil liberties are NOT being taken away in any way I consider relevent to my life. Did "they" tap my phone? I don't care. Listen all you want. I'll post in on the internet if you're interested. Forget my civil liberties being protected. I'm concerned about my ASS being protected!

Quote:
As Larry Flynt demonstrated rather decisively, it's the scumbags and gutter-trash that test the strength of those liberties -- NOT nice everyday middleclass Mr Joe Johnson. See, if even scumbags and gutter-trash have protections, then I can rest easier knowing that I do, too.
Absolutely! But Padilla et al. are not pornographers. I rather like pornographers. I appreciate their services. I do not appreciate the services of guys who want to poison me with radioactive dust.

Quote:
Actually, it's really rather sad, because the false binaries you throw up are reflections of (a) the easy ignorance of the GOP talking points "logic", where you (b) make an irrational solution seem like a rational option by forcing a choice between that and something even more irrational (and ignoring everything and anything else).
So I'm ignorant and irrational? Well, I can't argue against that. :)

Quote:
Watching smart introspective people that I like, do this, is like watching them cut out their eyes and poke holes in their eardrums, all to please a viciously abusive parent, all while they kick and scream and throw a fit whenever someone tries to tell them that they don't have to do this...
Let me check. Nope, I still have eves. Nope, I still have eardrums. I just process what I see and hear differently than you do.

Quote:
I know it's easier to crack wise about illegal porn, but using your apathy as a shield for your deliberate and calculated ignorance of reality is... disheartening.
Take heart! I'm still Nidal! And I love life! Really. I rather enjoy myself. I truly do. And I hope you do the same. :)
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Re: The declassified part of the NIE, for those interested

Postby Bauhaus » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:54 pm

Certainly there are degrees by which all of us care about one another (or not). Its simple evolution.

The first thing we all worry about is ourselves followed by our family and friends. Our neighbors, tribes, communities, countries humans, inhabitants of the planet Earth, etc. all come next (for different people order and intensity vary). Most people at least view their country and countrymen with some bias. I actually give wild animals followed by humans my greatest sympathy (and not much to my country omitting my natural affinity toward Californians.)

So, Nidal, while your position is not surprising, its just doesnt go quite far enough in identifying the dangers at hand. If we dont see that what happens to our fellow citizens might happen to us, we may fall short of correctly identifying the dangers to us.
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Re: The declassified part of the NIE, for those interested

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:01 pm

Aye

What Dave said. I understand where you're coming from, Nidal. It just saddens me, is all. I mean, I agree -- you are a great guy who loves life.

Lately I've been feeling like a political proselytizer. "Yes, you're making rational choices, but you'd make DIFFERENT rational ones if you could only see what it is I'm selling!"

It's an odd feeling ;)

=======

Side note: I wasn't lumping you together with "all Arabs", Nidal. I was lumping you together with "all American citizens", of which Jose Padilla is certainly one. Besides which, Padilla isn't Arabic. ;)

I kinda prefer my "terror suspects" to be put on trial, media sensation and all. You know, like that Tim McVeigh fellow, or that Terry Nichols fellow. Not "disappeared" into a dark hole somewhere, or tortured endlessly.

Yes, it might take 6-8 years. But if a twisted scuz like McVeigh is guaranteed a trial for killing nearly 200 people, then I know that I would be guaranteed equal rights, as well.

When a twisted scuz is NOT guaranteed a trial, then I no longer have that guarantee. All I can do is take it on FAITH that I still do have these privileges and rights. The demonstrated guarantee is gone.

Since my rights include a guarantee OF those rights, by removing that guarantee, the govn't is infringing on my rights. My civil liberties are being stripped away. All I have left is the nebulous promise of a "benevolent leader" -- because quite literally, that's the sole, individual person who would be making the decisions about whether to strip me of my rights or not.

Fighting AGAINST that kind of authority was the basis of the American ideal, the American revolution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. The kind of shyte Bush is pulling is literally the Polar Opposite of what America was founded on.

That's why I ask -- at what point WILL you think that this is actually infringing on your rights and liberties? Because from where I'm sitting, it already is, you just don't seem to think so...
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Re: The declassified part of the NIE, for those interested

Postby VectorAWX3 » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:01 pm

Does anyone want any part of being this guy's "fellow citizen":

www.dailymail.co.uk/pages...ge_id=1770



Quote:
my natural affinity toward Californians
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
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Re: The declassified part of the NIE, for those interested

Postby VectorAWX3 » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:12 pm

Quote:
Side note: I wasn't lumping you together with "all Arabs", Nidal. I was lumping you together with "all American citizens", of which Jose Padilla is certainly one. Besides which, Padilla isn't Arabic.
Oh I know. See, I'm not anti-Arab or anything.. I'm anti-terrorist. Sadly, we know where 90% of the fuckers come from. :

Most Arabs are actually pretty cool people. Very laid back, friendly, like to party, drink, get laid. And Jewish girls love us! :D
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Re: The declassified part of the NIE, for those interested

Postby Bauhaus » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:30 pm

Quote:
Does anyone want any part of being this guy's "fellow citizen":


Sure, he sounds more like Patty Hearst than anything else. Doesn't say that he went very far in actually doing anything (other than plot.) Even his guilty plea makes me think he's more "disturbed" than "criminal."

I'm glad we got one of the "terrorists".
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Re: The declassified part of the NIE, for those interested

Postby VectorAWX3 » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:34 pm

Dave, you're such a bleeding heart! :lol
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Re: The declassified part of the NIE, for those interested

Postby Bauhaus » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:54 am

Look at the guy. He's pathetic! He deserves are sympathy as much as anything else. He's not a criminal.
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