US first major world nation to break Geneva Conventions

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Re: US first major world nation to break Geneva Conventions

Postby The Gunslinger » Wed Dec 31, 1969 8:00 pm

Ken, who are you to think you can change anything about what our government does, besides asking a few dozen people to vote a certain way? Most people do what they want anyway. It's not apathy, it's reality. Yes, many an inspiring individual have started big movements that changed our country, ie. Martin Luther King Jr., but without any disrespect, you're not as influential, and you're not even in the media. But your a school teacher, so that counts for something, but I'd say most kids don't care until they reach their 20's, maybe 30's. Does that mean you shouldn't try to reach them? Absolutely not.

But besides that, probably the best influence for our voters are the actions of our political leaders. I think they can be as hard as they want toward ANYONE that wants to terrorize our country. I don't care if terrorists get tortured to get info, but from what someone said on this thread, it rarely produces valuable intel. But if you're tasked with getting anything that could prevent another 9/11, what would you do with some prick terrorist who *does* know something that threatens us?

If it was me, I'd have to quit my job. I can't torture people, unless MAYBE I lost a loved one. I might hit someone with sufficient reason: to protect myself, or another, but to get info out of someone ... no thanks. Makes me sick to my stomach.

Anyway, there has been valuable to come from those prisons, whether it was from torture, or not, I don't know. But a criticism is that it *rarely* produces valuable intel. So how much torture is tolerable to get intel that could save LIVES? It could save your brother, your parents, your neighbor.

On a related note, some "torture" methods used are dunking someone's heads underwater long enough to make them think they'll drown. Making them stand for long periods of time. Sleep, & food deprivation. Not sure about anything else. Some of that stuff is acceptable, IMO: sleep & food deprivation, & standing a long time.

I'm not sure what the problems are with truth sirums. It sounds way more acceptable. Does anyone know why truth sirums aren't used as much as the above mentioned? I'm just going by hearsay, not data
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US first major world nation to break Geneva Conventions

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:02 am

www.washingtonpost.com/wp...00298.html

The carefully media-neutral description is in the story above.

Here's the DELIGHTFUL highlights of the steaming dung-heap "compromise" that the GOP will now steamroll through before November and make into a beautiful little election-year bludgeon.

(1) Secret CIA torture prisons will be legal. The language of the legislature means that "torture" is being re-defined by the United States. They're doing this by basically ignoring half of the Geneva Convention definition, and dramatically reducing the standard for the rest from "any level whatsoever of anything resembling torture" to "serious pain-inflicting kinds of torture".

(2) Prisoners of such torture prisons will have NO legal recourses whatsoever. Even if wrongfully imprisoned and later released. These prisons will now officially be a black hole.

(3) The President and his military and spies will now OFFICIALLY have the authority to "disappear" people into the CIA gulags. Don't like your neighbor? Classify him a 'terror suspect' and *bam*, he's disappeared. Neighbor's new puppy pissing on your lawn? It's a 'terror suspect'! Couple of dark-skinned fellows on a plane into Atlanta yammering away in a language other than English? Terror suspects! Girlfriend dump you? No worries, she's a terror suspect! Don't worry about misuse of power, though, because there's NO OVERSIGHT WHATSOEVER.

(4) Any military or CIA torturer is now immune from future prosecution. No matter what. Ever. For all time. Blanket lifetime immunity.

(5) Terror suspects will not be allowed to "hide behind" the Conventions. Oddly, what El Presidente seems to consider a bug of the Conventions is pretty much the entire CENTRAL FEATURE.

(6) If a "terror suspect" gets to court, the brave, brave, maverick (R) senators have ensured that they have access to "classified" data that the prosecution wishes to use. Of course, this doesn't matter worth DICK, because the so-called mavericks completely caved on habeus corpus. In other words, someone classified a "terror suspect" is no longer guaranteed a trial. Period. They can now legally be dropped into one of the CIA black holes and left to rot for the rest of eternity, sans trial.

(7) Which of course makes Gitmo perfectly a-ok.

(8 ) Oh, yeah, don't forget the kicker. If you have a problem with ANY of this, you're clearly a traitor who wants the terrorists to win.

===========

PS: for the morons who haven't figured this out, the primary reason to sign the Geneva Conventions is to protect YOUR OWN PEOPLE FROM BEING FUCKED OVER. The point of massive multinational conventions like this is to create a 'civilized baseline' for war. El Presidente Fucktard and his Wild West gang have just exposed every single American, military or not.

There's no way that the US can fight as dirty as this enemy. Not at all. It would come out the other side, and wouldn't be the US anymore.

But who cares? After all, they already pissed all over the Constitution. It was only a matter of time before they got to the Geneva Convention. I can't wait to see what Lord Assclown and his merry gang of enablers (which of course includes the hapless so-called "opposition party") go for next
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Re: US first major world nation to break Geneva Conventions

Postby -Thrax » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:52 am

What's grimly funny about this is that I was just teaching my students about the suspension of Habeas corpus in 1794 by the Brits on Tuesday:

www.napoleon-series.org/r...abeus.html

Parallels? NAH!

T
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Re: US first major world nation to break Geneva Conventions

Postby -thx10050 » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:57 pm

Wow. That's really fucked up, Ken.
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Re: US first major world nation to break Geneva Conventions

Postby warmongerclub » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:39 pm

Ken-
I'd be interested to hear your opinion on this Ken. It's always very hard to get your take on things from posts like this. :)

Jim
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Re: US first major world nation to break Geneva Conventions

Postby -Papa Gino » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:23 pm

Erm...perhaps I've been spending too much time in my own little world (again), but has this whole thing not been fairly obvious to anyone with a third of a brain for a good while now? [I.e. where this Administration was headed, how it was going to get it, how the "mavericks" were going to cave just like they had the last time around, etc. etc. ad nauseam.]

Blah. It's actually a bit ironic - I was born in a supposedly Hellish state on the path to "freedom" and liberalization, and had emigrated to a supposedly free and liberal state on the path to Hell in a handbasket. I guess anything in-between is just too much to ask...

Quote:
I can't wait to see what Lord Assclown and his merry gang of enablers (which of course includes the hapless so-called "opposition party";) go for next.


Iran.

And not because it's either a) an intelligent or b) an appropriate thing to do.
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Re: US first major world nation to break Geneva Conventions

Postby -The Fabulous Orcboy » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:10 am

Gino: yeah, I know.

Lord Assclown has a serious hard-on for attacking Iran. Because he's under the delusion that this will make the politrickal situation All Better.

In case people forgot (or never knew), the reason Iran was able to pull out a stalemate in Iraq/Iran back in the day, despite having their asses handed to them by Iraq, is because they were the country that was perfectly willing to conscript CHILD SOLDIERS for the express purpose of clearing landmines. By walking across them. That in itself should tell you everything you need to know about the "relative sanity" of attacking Iran.

This is NOT a war that the US wants. It wouldn't want this war even if it WASN'T hip-deep in angry militants in Iraq and Afghanistan (both next-door to Iran) with extremely fragile supply lines. It wouldn't want this war even if Iran didn't have the ability to almost completely shut down oil shipping from the Persian Gulf with just a few guys with missiles on the shore of the Straits of Hormuz (take a look at a map -- and how easily Iran could block oil shipments from Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, etc).

This idea so dumb on so many levels that NATURALLY it's the next thing on the list.

Of course, there's at least one way to stop him.

Vote (D) in November. Everywhere. No exceptions. Voting (R) anywhere on the national ballot just puts (back) into power folks that cheerfully enable this turd and his ass-kissing amoral yes-men
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Re: US first major world nation to break Geneva Conventions

Postby The Gunslinger » Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:22 am

I believe that there are people in our law enforcement that have more than 2 brain cells to rub together to figure out when someone is not a terror suspect, no matter who accuses them of being so. Ken, I respectfully think that some of your examples are blown out of proportion
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Re: US first major world nation to break Geneva Conventions

Postby -Papa Gino » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:20 am

No they're not. A) people with two cells to rub together tend to work in the private sector. B) there are and will always be numerous incentives to generate arrests (as with "body count"), just as in any other are of law-enforcement. C) there are and will always be numerous incentives, especially for unscrupulous persons, to exploit any loopholes in any legal "governance" statute to their own advantage. D) no-one can ever be definitively proven to be completely innocent. There is always suspicion.

Separately. E) arguing that "a few flaws" or "a handful of examples blown out of proportion" justify the entire system is disingenuous at best. In other words, by that logic Miranda was a travesty vs. U.S. law enforcement.
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Re: US first major world nation to break Geneva Conventions

Postby savaughn » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 am

>>I believe that there are people in our law enforcement that have more than 2 brain cells to rub together to figure out when someone is not a terror suspect, no matter who accuses them of being so.

You are kidding right?
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