Dwarves and the Stone

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Re: Dwarves and the Stone

Postby -bigALtheBRUTE » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:56 pm

My question is, what if they have spears and your standard is in the second rank? he does fight as the rules for spears, but since he does fight, can he get the bonus of his standard
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Re: Dwarves and the Stone

Postby -bigALtheBRUTE » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:00 pm

Going back to the original question. Yes, the hero can move within the unit if it wins combat. It can do this because it isn't considered a move of the unit, it is a rearrangement according to paragraph 1 under the position within unit section on page 80. The dwarf book clearly says that the unit may not move, nothing about the stone bearer may not move, it's the whole unit. (except for fleeing
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Re: Dwarves and the Stone

Postby subversive » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:02 pm

Ah, I see what you're saying... you're correcting the statement that they "always work," not saying that they only work in the fighting rank. Gotcha
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Re: Dwarves and the Stone

Postby subversive » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:15 pm

with regard to your question about the standard bearer in the second rank if he has a spear, that's interesting...

The section you quoted says that they cannot take part in the close combat unless they're engaged. If they're armed with spears, then I'd say yes, they are engaged.

However: The last part says "Also, some of the bonuses these models confer to the unit are lost, as described below." Then none of the sections on standard bearer, musician or champion say anything about losing their bonuses to the unit for being in the second rank. So by the letter of the rules, you still get those benefits.
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Re: Dwarves and the Stone

Postby xmbk » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:51 pm

The rules for moving the a char on the Oathstone are ... set in stone. "The character on the stone may not be moved within the unit".

As for the AB and M, I think you guys are making things overly complicated. As long as they're in the front rank *when charged*, they add their bonus for the entire combat, even if they never get into the fight. Otherwise rear charges would deny SB and M bonus. Champions can move during your following movement phase.

As for the spears, they don't make any difference. No front rank, no command bonus. The wording in the book is poor, but it should be basically read as "the following bonuses are lost".
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Re: Dwarves and the Stone

Postby subversive » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:28 am

Unfortunately, that's NOT how it reads. While I agree that your description is probably the intent (SBs and Ms not in the front rank do not confer bonuses), that's not how the rule is written. I'd be fine playing either way, as really, how often does it come up? But if you're a strict RAW person (as some people are), the rules do not say you lose those bonuses
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Re: Dwarves and the Stone

Postby Bauhaus » Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:29 pm

The situation the rules are addressing is what if there are more characters and command than can be placed in the front rank?

1) You have to place the unit standard in the center of the front rank. No choice.
2) You can then put characters, the musician and the champion anywhere along the rank or behind once the front rank is full.

If you place a character, musician or champion in the second rank then what happens?

1) If hes armed with a spear hell be able to fight.
2) Musicians dont need to be in the front rank to give their bonus.
3) Characters do need to be in the front rank to give their leadership, reroll, etc.

Ill need to check my rulebook on some of the other aspects (can a magician cast a magic missile from the second rank, or any spell requiring LOS? I dont know.)
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Re: Dwarves and the Stone

Postby -bigALtheBRUTE » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:34 am

Your second #2 is wrong. If anything isn't in the front rank, then its bonuses are lost. And the last part about the wizard, the same applies as above. The only ones that defy this rule are slanns and skaven mages, simply because it says so in the rules.
Take the beastmen herd for example, if I charge it with a chariot and you have 3 bray shamans, a standard, a muscican and a champion in the unit. Each bray shaman is in the front rank, and the standard is there also, where do the other two commands go? in the second rank. Thus denying you the LD 7 of the foe-render, and the +1 combat res in case of a tie
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Re: Dwarves and the Stone

Postby Sergrum » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:45 pm

If I'm not mistaken command always take presidence over characters. So if you have a 5 wide unit with full command and 3 characters, then 1 character has to go in the back. Also standards being in the middle is a 6th edition rule, it doesnt apply anymore. Command can go wherever they want.

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Re: Dwarves and the Stone

Postby -poxous » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:43 pm

I thought that is how it was. The brets have a special rule to allow for command not in the front rank to work.
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