Dwarf building

Moderator: Anger Worm

Re: Dwarf building

Postby subversive » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:06 pm

Quote:
but don't try to preach to me about "underutilized" parts of the game

Larry, don't you see that's exactly what you're doing? You're preaching about your personal preference. A dragon or a bloodthirster is OK comp wise because it's in the main army list, but a unit of pikemen is a comp ding? 15 jezzails, 5 rattling guns, 13 casting dice? hey no problem! They're in the list, and 13 casting dice is flavorful to boot! Halfling hotpot? DING! Your comp just dropped!

Special characters are covered in tournament rules: either they're allowed or they're not. Some tournaments do it on a case by cases basis: Crom OK, Morghur no. Appendix lists are, by definition, not considered competetive lists because they're not set up to be balanced (whatever that means); this is well documented, and generally the books qualify those lists as requiring your opponent's permission. So using those two things as comparison is apples and oranges. If DOW are allowed in a tournament, it's bullshit for you to knock someone's comp based purely on your distaste for them, as opposed to actually looking at whether they're OTT
subversive
 
Posts: 2689
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:20 am

Re: Dwarf building

Postby -robkopp » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:10 pm

Well, considering it seems a lot of people are talking about me, I guess I'll pitch in. Yes I am using Ironguts in my dark elf army as in my mind the crocodille can't be anything but an ogre. I do not expect even close to perfect comp but comp is very subjective.
At Necro I had a mounted dark elf list with a dragon + maneaters. I got 2nd or 3rd best comp.
Would I have given my own army top comp? Probably not.
Did I deserve the award? Yes, since my opponents voted for me.
Given this example should comp stop being subjective? I think no. Any hard comp system that is generated will have some way around it. An army that the tourney organizers didn't think of will get top comp and will be hard as nails.
If you try and create a system that accounts for everything then you have something the size of a rulebook just for comp at a tournament, which can be difficult to manage.

Just as everyone is entitled to their opinion on what is cheesey and what is compy so to are they allowed to love or hate subjective comp. I vote for subjective comp as the tournament should really be about the players and giving them more control can't be a bad thing. Earning awards at a tourney has more to do about your draw then anything else with the possible exception of Player's Choice.
-robkopp
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:01 am

Re: Dwarf building

Postby Larro » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:15 pm

I see little difference if I ding someone for a DOW rare slot or if you ding a guy for a Dragon or a Bloodthirster. This is the world of Comp, deal with it and don't try to change my beliefs. You want to take DOW rare slots, stellar. The same jerkoff tournament organizer who is banning Appendix, Storm of Chaos or Special Characters is allowing mixing and matching of Rare slots solely because GW put them IN THE RARE SLOT CATEGORY TO SELL DOW MODELS. The placement of the DOW units as a "Rare" slot entry is simply aesthetical but provides no real substantive difference between them or Appendix or Special Characters - technically, they're ALL in the army book. Picking one and banning it because its elsewhere in the Book while the other is in another part is a lame reason.

Besides, I never said I wouldn't ding those armies you mentioned. I likely would. I am not a liberal Comp judge by any means. In fact, I think far too many people give Top Comp scores out automatically. Too many of you people cry for the system and then fail to utilize it.

- Larr
"Just being born means you've lost to Larro. Or haven't you gotten the memo yet?" - Nidal

"Larry was right. I know he never gets tired of hearing that." - Canterman
User avatar
Larro
 
Posts: 3296
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:52 pm

Re: Dwarf building

Postby VectorAWX3 » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:21 pm

Quote:
Too many of you people cry for the system and then fail to utilize it.
100% agreed.
Jaghatai, on the Pale Rider event: I hop on this board to post a simple NEWCC question, end up looking at some interacial lesbian action and watch a religious meltdown. You guys know how to party!
User avatar
VectorAWX3
 
Posts: 10006
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:13 am

Re: Dwarf building

Postby subversive » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:09 am

Quote:
technically, they're ALL in the army book

No, technically, appendix lists specifically require your opponent's permission. DOW have no such caveat. They are in every army's main list and do not require special permission to use. If you're going to get technical, be accurate.

With special characters, yes, they are in the list, and I would have the same argument with anyone who said special characters are an automatic comp ding without regard to the actual value of the character in tabletop play.

Let's define "in the list" so we can end this part of the discussion:
Things printed in the actual main army list, that require no special permission to use, and are commonly allowed in tournaments; and things published in official supplements (white dwarf, annuals, etc) that specifically append the main list as defined above. In other words, tournament legal. Appendix lists are not, special characters are sometimes, DOW are more often than not in my experience.

So you say that you'd ding the lists I mentioned? Why would you ding them? I'm assuming it's based on the OTT-ness of them. If that's accurate, why would you apply one standard to those lists and another standard to lists that include DOW? Why look at a SAD critically to determine that it's OTT, but simply make a blanket statement about DOW without applying critical thinking to the list as a whole? Or are you saying that you've analyzed every conceivable combination of DOW with another army, and in all cases you've found them to be game breaking, OTT, and in keeping with a win-at-all-costs mentality? Or do you just have something against the Hotpot? Why the halfling hate? Were you one of those guys who was secretly hoping that Sauron would get the ring back and toast Frodo like a marshmallow on a stick
subversive
 
Posts: 2689
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:20 am

Re: Dwarf building

Postby Larro » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:37 am

I ding what I feel is OTT. I also ding any clown who takes DOW rare slots because I think anyone who takes them is a loser, and they often try to justify it with some "fluff" argument which holds no water. I take Skeletons and Zombies and clowns tell me my army is OTT, and when I say it's "fluffy" they roll their eyes. What makes that any more "right"? This is the Tournament world we live in, and it's subjective. Stop pushing your liberal DOW bullshit on me. And keep your Hot Pot. If you were smart, you'd put your points elsewhere. Just because DOW units are largely ineffective doesn't magically make them an un-dingable offense. Some of them are highly effective, such as Duelists, and in my eyes, OK units of all shapes and sizes. Added to many lists that lack substantial punch, they provide it, with consistent staying power. You think VC with Cannons are lame, why not the rest? I don't have time to do a case by case analysis, and my blanket dinging must suffice as I am a busy law school student. DOW Rare slots are lame, they don't belong in a GOOD tournament list, and that's that. I respectfully disagree with you and will continue to utilize the freedom to vote with my pen at the end of the game. End of discussion.

- Larr
"Just being born means you've lost to Larro. Or haven't you gotten the memo yet?" - Nidal

"Larry was right. I know he never gets tired of hearing that." - Canterman
User avatar
Larro
 
Posts: 3296
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:52 pm

Re: Dwarf building

Postby WickerNipple » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:01 pm

This thread needs to get back on topic.

User avatar
WickerNipple
 
Posts: 8135
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:37 am

Re: Dwarf building

Postby subversive » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:18 pm

edited to get back on topi
subversive
 
Posts: 2689
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:20 am

Re: Dwarf building

Postby WickerNipple » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:24 pm

I was kidding, sheesh! :lol

And note, I don't think VC with cannons are lame at all. Perfectly fine in my book.
User avatar
WickerNipple
 
Posts: 8135
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:37 am

Re: Dwarf building

Postby xmbk » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:38 pm

Thank God that model is beardy - must be a DOW. ;)
Not caring adds a whole new dimension to the game.
xmbk
 
Posts: 696
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:06 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Warhammer Fantasy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests

cron