Taking out Skirmishers

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Re: Taking out Skirmishers

Postby Larro » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:09 am

Quote:
To a degree. I don't see what war machines do to win the game that more troops don't.

When I see dwarves with machinces...I win.

Dwarves w/o em is a far tougher fight because I don't get spotted 300+ pts.

Same with empire.

1-2 cannons is ok but I have NEVER lost 200pts worth of anything, black coach aside, to cannons. The points are not there.


This is one of the worst arguments I have ever seen, the whole "earning your points back" debate. Why does my cannon need to earn its points back? What will 100 points get me than can single-handedly take out a Chariot, a Giant, or any other large Terror causer? A Cannon shuts off lanes, or forces your opponent to decide to take a risk in deciding how to best utilize his chariot, etc.

Chariots are the real threat for Empire, and they have few ways of dealing with them besides Cannons. 1 Cannon is almost a must for this purpose, and I would say a 2nd one, in the form of a Steam Tank, is perfectly acceptable.

Dwarves need them slightly less only because they endure better in HTH. Still, a pair of BTs would be in my list even as a Dwarf player. Cheap bodies can't necessarily take out a Dwarf War Machine crew, especially since they're Stubborn. And they're still WS4, T4, which means most flyers are hitting them on 4s and wounding on 5s. Not bad at all, and not easily killable in the least.

To constrain the benefits of War Machines simply to the field of vs. VC and vs. Bretonnians is short-sighted and unjust. There are many armies out there that they work just fine against, most of which are Tournament-level. Even if a Cannon doesn't "earn its points back," it could dictate where a unit goes, or take out a key chariot, even a cheap Goblin Chariot, which could definitely swing things if you're smart enough to capitalize.

And besides, even vs. your VC army, what's so bad about shooting a Cannon at your Black Coach? 5+ Ward, big deal. I'll take those chances to get 200 pts and more importantly, drop a Chariot. Or, I can peg 2 Black Knights, which while you might think is insignificant (because it isn't 100 victory points :rolleyes ), it is still cutting your big "Hammer" unit down a Rank bonus AND 4US, all unrecoverable, which vs. VC can make all the difference in being Auto-Broken or not. If a Cannon was taking shots at my Grave Guard, even if it hit and killed 4-5, I'd say it did SOMETHING useful for the simple fact it again, killed a Rank and cut my US. What else is it supposed to do?

The other point about "what would 100 points do better" is also absurd, although slightly less so than the above argument. 20 extra Militia wouldn't have a chance of killing 4-5 Grave Guard before they broke. The Cannon projects force immediately from turn 1, and in conjunction with the other parts of the army, serves a purpose. Plus, my Cannon can get multiple shots off over the course of a game, because only your Flyers pose a realistic threat and a smart player can put something in line to get them before they get it. The other option is Summoned Wolves, which need a turn to get a charge to begin with and will likely be dealt with first by small-arms fire or magic missiles. Yes, the Cannon will go down eventually, but if I diverted your attention to my Cannon, surely it's worth SOMETHING to have you pay so much attention to take it off the table. The relevance of the Cannon and what those 100 points can do all ties into the army list itself. ou may already have 3-4 sufficiently sized units, with some supplemental handgun/crossbow/archer fire. Do you REALLY need more? Does the Cannon play a role? Or how about a Mortar, if you're playing a more static list? Can a 5" Template of Light Infantry Death help you?

Units don't have to earn their points back to be vital. You love the Gyrocopter, but the Gyrocopter rarely earns its points back. However, it serves a role of March Blocker and small-unit vaporizer, which is plenty good, regardless of Costs. And what makes it good? The fact that it works almost seamlessly to balance out the Dwarven short-comings; speed and skirmishers. Cannons do the same for Empire.

- Larr
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Re: Taking out Skirmishers

Postby -Jarrett » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:53 am

Not to mention tossing it in there for a 3d6 pursuit.

Todd is just spoiled. :lol
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Re: Taking out Skirmishers

Postby -poxous » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:57 am

100pt cannon not doing anything is one thing. 300+pts of arty dead on turn 2 that did nothing is another.

When I make an army I have the ability to kill 3-4 war machines turn 2 just for the free points. And remember the stuff I kill machines with can still flank/rear charge, march block, cause panic tests, or force your unit to die if it flees.
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Re: Taking out Skirmishers

Postby Sergrum » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:16 am

Warmachines are free points if people let them get killed turn 2. Hopefully they'd have something to protect them with.

I understand what you're saying, but i think your underestimating what artillary can do.

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Re: Taking out Skirmishers

Postby -John Bianchi » Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:45 am

I love how we completely hi-jack our own discussions these days. :D

I believe the topic here was how to get rid of skirmishers. How in the world did it turn into a discussion of the relative merits of war machines? :lol

Despite the change in topic - which may not be in anyway useful to Rooster - sorry, man! - I'm enjoying the discussion immensely.

Todd, the last time I saw you, you were fielding a very tasty Nurgle army (that was a long time ago, wasn't it?). What are you fielding these days that strikes into the backfield that quickly?
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Re: Taking out Skirmishers

Postby -poxous » Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:49 am

I know what war machine could do. Trouble is they don't.

I have played WFB since 3rd ed. and I in MY exp war machines are the second worse thing to spend pts on. The worst thing being archers/shooting in general.

WFB is won in the HtH phase. I fully understand the tactical role of some machines, like a helblaster denying an area. I am not saying anyone who uses machines is a fool, but for ME they are free pts. Anything relys on the randomness of the dice to do something is bad IMHO.
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Re: Taking out Skirmishers

Postby Sergrum » Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:07 am

Magic is in that same catagory though. It's deffiantly random (barring tomb kings). I agree that games are won in HTH, but i think having some sort of shooting phase is important for limiting your opponents moves.

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Re: Taking out Skirmishers

Postby Larro » Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:25 am

Quote:
I have played WFB since 3rd ed. and I in MY exp war machines are the second worse thing to spend pts on. The worst thing being archers/shooting in general.


Entirely discounting Shooting is pretty brash. I know that Skinks are pretty damned good, and most anything with a Handgun is worth its points. Again, the problem is you're looking for the shooting to get its points back. If my unit of Handgunners takes out a unit of Fast Cavalry, points equivalent or not, it has now protected my Flank from a potential charge and made MY HTH phase that much more effective. Shooting is almost always there to augment the HTH phase. That's a smart player's purpose.

I know that as a VC player, I hate when people shoot my Wolves and Ghouls with anything practical because those units serve roles in my army and don't come back. Shooting at the infantry blocks does you little good most of the time (unless its with a War Machine). There is always randomness in the dice - it's a dice game. Sure, that's why you play VC, to take the randomness out of it, and I enjoy that part of VC myself, but I still appreciate shooting. Going overboard in anything doesn't help, but Shooting, like Magic, has an amazing impact on the game when used properly and in the right dosage. Again, going by your experiences of what shooting does vs. a VC army isn't a fair experience, since Shooting, war machines or not, are less effective against an Immune to Psych army that comes back together, as one might expect.

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Re: Taking out Skirmishers

Postby -poxous » Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:08 pm

Well prepared shooting, IMHO, only sets up HtH combat wins.

I do not discount shooting. I am just saying I 70 or GTs no one has ever shot me to death( and I faced some SAD, empire all hand gun/ 4 cannon/2blasters), ect.

Magic is not the same because some lores can force HtH so they are important.

Anyhow, I'm not trying to defend my position anymore. Sucks to me and any magic that move troops or make units is BUTT IMHO. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Taking out Skirmishers

Postby slann » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:56 am

well shooting is a huge part of my high elf list the archers take out ranks before combat is met and my bolt throwers are great against almost everything.
Would you rather pew pew pew pew or chic chic BLAM !!! chic chic BLAM !!!!
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