OK, read the FAQ, here is my Rant!

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Re: OK, read the FAQ, here is my Rant!

Postby Bauhaus » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:18 pm

Certainly I have no clue about the mind of GW but it has always seemed to me that the main reason they can't just say maximize the number of models at all times is that effectively it increases the charge distance beyond they're "limit". They can't reconcile the logic about being able to "be drawn in" farther than the unit's ability to move. Otherwise all the arguments would be about how a unit with a charge distance of 8" actually can move 10" or 11" or even more given their frontage. By their own rules and using Ronen's example, his unit of slayers could probably en up "moving" 15" on the charge! How can they say this is legal? They can't, but they'd like us to play that way! I'm happy to oblige and let these special situations occure.
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Re: OK, read the FAQ, here is my Rant!

Postby Ganymede » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:10 am

Doesn't the free align move already afford you an easy 4-6 inches of free movement on top of a unit's regular charge move? Is there a distinction between the free movement allowed via an alignment and the free movement granted by a sideways shuffle?

Anyways, one of the solutions to this problem is never talked about all that much: failed charges. One way to handle the situation is such.

"If a unit is too close to a unit to properly wheel to maximize, then the unit slides over. If a unit is too far away from a unit to properly wheel to maximize, then the charge is a failed charge."
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Re: OK, read the FAQ, here is my Rant!

Postby elrodogg » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:16 am

Gany - I assume that the quote is yours and not the rulebook. If that were true infantry would never get a charge ever again. The final "free wheel" is what lets them actually get charges off.
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Re: OK, read the FAQ, here is my Rant!

Postby Ganymede » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:42 am

In the first portion of my post, I was just responding to someone who was against sliding because it allowed a unit to move further than it would be allowed normally. I was pointing out that the alignment move does the same thing. I was not actually advocating that we get rid of the free alignment move.
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Re: OK, read the FAQ, here is my Rant!

Postby Bauhaus » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:46 am

The difference is that the "free move" allowed by the wheel is allowed within the rules, while the "free move" to slide over bringing as many models into btb isn't. You're right though, you get an 8" charge plus a 3" free wheel plus a few extra inches to slide over. One of your models get's to move pretty far (while the model that allowed the charge only gets 8" plus the slide.)
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Re: OK, read the FAQ, here is my Rant!

Postby Larro » Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:53 am

Here's how I see it - Sliding is stupid. First of all, it almost only comes up in an Overrun type situation. Why oh why do you we have to slide our units and move them to get more models into combat? What if my overrun is designed to get me into combat so if I break the 2nd unit, I can overrun into the path of say, a wizard or something else I want to kill? Now, because I'm forced to Slide, my unit is moved out of the path of the 3rd target (the wizard) because of some arbitrary rule, effectively throwing a monkey wrench into my plans and strategy while saving my opponent from haphazard, short-sighted game play.

Example: Unit X, is off-right of Unit Y, with a Wizard also off-right from Unit Y. If Y charges and breaks a first unit, and subsequently overruns into X, breaks it and overruns, under the Clipping rule, it is still in the path of Wizard who is subsequently killed.

However, under sliding, I now pay the price for charging and overrunning, because I must now slide once I hit the 2nd unit, and not receive the benefit for both my intelligent decision, which I possibly forsaw before my initial charge of the unit before my overrun into X, and my opponents crappy placement of his wizard. Lame. When Unit Y overruns, they now miss the Wizard entirely. Why? Because of Sliding. IT doesn't reward intelligent, well-thought out game play.

And it also enables a unit of 30 Goblins to overrun into Unit X, in the front, which, say, is a unit of Ogres, which it wouldn't want to fight in the front - and take advantage of the Overrun, and break them, since only 1 Ogre can fight back vs. say, 4. I think it's strategy. I've done it before, I'll do it again, and I think if nothing else, it makes you take a step back and PLAN for more than just 1 turn.

This takes my back to Game 2 at the Baltimore GT, when I played some clown who had moved his wizard behind his unit of Demonettes (Cult of Slannesh army), to get in range of a spell, only to have his unit subsequently crushed and his wizard overrun into - because of bad planning. What makes clipping any different? Don't position your units that rely on killing power (chosen knights) and not ranks (infantry) in positions where they can get clipped.

If anything, it favors Infantry, and I'm down with anything that favors static-combat res units. I never thought it cheating since it's so entirely hard to plan and predict, that it could only happen in such random and rare instances.

The end

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Re: OK, read the FAQ, here is my Rant!

Postby Bauhaus » Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:31 am

If both players are equally experienced and versed in the rules, it shouldn't make any difference at all. You're still trying to determine the outcome, placing your wizards, etc. based on understanding the mechanics of the game.

And if you expect favorable things during the game for your side, you should be equally able to deal with favorable outcomes for your opponent. (Or did your opponent think that the little model behind the block of troops was "really" hidden?)

Even during a tournament I'll discuss with my opponent what sort of things will happen if I overrun during the first round of combat.

Sportsmanship is about playing the game on the table in front of you, not the game that you wish was taking place (where troops are "hidden" from view, etc.)

(It's no more "stupid" one way or the other.)
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Re: OK, read the FAQ, here is my Rant!

Postby Larro » Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:40 am

Sliding doesn't fix anything. It just becomes another option which can be exploited, like Clipping could have been, so really, where's the big difference? People don't like clipping, and there will be people like me, who don't like sliding. Clipping favors infantry and static res, and Sliding favors combat mavens who rely on kills. In the end it's all relative, so changing the rule makes no sense because the playing field still isn't level.

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Re: OK, read the FAQ, here is my Rant!

Postby Sergrum » Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:46 am

Just a comment on the overrunning issue. When an overrun/pursit is determined that it will hit another unit, then doesn't the overrunning unit move as if it was charging the unit it would hit. therefore unless it was a clip sliding wouldn't matter? Just checking to see if that is right.

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Re: OK, read the FAQ, here is my Rant!

Postby Larro » Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:05 am

But that's my point - when it is a clip, Sliding thus forces me out of my original, sometimes more-desired charge path.

Ex:

_______________O________
________XXXXX___________
________XXXXX___________
___________YYYYY________
___________YYYYY________

Assuming Y has charged another unit prior this is the resulting overrun, under 6th edition rules, I could now break X and overrun into O, my desired target Wizard.

Now, under Sliding:

_______________O________
________XXXXX___________
________XXXXX___________
________ YYYYY__________
________ YYYYY__________

Now I just miss the Wizard. But, let's say the enemy Wizard peaked out from behind Unit X because he needed LOS for a spell - he now gets the advantage of being able to draw a line of sight WITHOUT being exposed to potential overrun death, because Sliding takes him out of the path. Lame.

This is just one example and the first one that came to mind. You could easily replace O as a Wizard with O as a unit of Chosen Chaos Knights, with my realizing the opportunity to strike decisively to overrun into them and catch a lone Knight on the edge, instead of now having to slide into the front of the Meatgrinder that is CHosen Chaos Knights. This is beneficial to Infantry, which have no real way to deal with the more mobile Knights, and have to rely almost solely on good fortune and static resolution. This option is now all but snuffed out by sliding.

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