Obama is the worst president in history- discuss

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Obama is the worst president in history- discuss

Postby mattbird » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:47 am

Has there ever been a president elected with such a sweeping mandate for change, who once elected—with his party in control of both the house and senate—has done absolutely nothing to address any of the major problems facing the country and the world at large?

Energy— Fail
Economy— Fail
Climate change— Fail
Changing Washington politics—Fail

Continuing debatable military policies—Pass
Continuing to allow Wall st. to run our economy into the ground—Pass
Winning Nobel prize for not being George Bush while somehow being exactly like George Bush—Pass

etc.
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Re: Obama is the worst president in history- discuss

Postby WickerNipple » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:52 am

But but but but Unicorns!
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Re: Obama is the worst president in history- discuss

Postby Bauhaus » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:20 pm

I'm a socialist who wants a big government (for many reasons including good middle class jobs for teachers, police, government workers, military personel etc.) Do you really think there's someone out there who can make the case for big government? Who would actually be able to spend money on resturcturing Energy and the capitalst bullshit society? Not today. When we actually want to spend our tax dollars on things that matter to people - like good jobs, good government services (including education and healthcare), infrastructure, etc. and not on fighting two wars and caring for the rich then we'll get a good President. Until then we'll get what we deserve. Obama's better than the Rebublicans and is probably about as good as we can get until we decide to pull our capitalist heads out of our asses. The rich control the debate and I have to believe that they're pretty damn happy right now!
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Re: Obama is the worst president in history- discuss

Postby elrodogg » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:26 pm

Obama > Buchanon and/or Hoover
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Re: Obama is the worst president in history- discuss

Postby mattbird » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:30 pm

Bauhaus wrote:When we actually want to spend our tax dollars on things that matter to people - like good jobs, good government services (including education and healthcare), infrastructure, etc. and not on fighting two wars and caring for the rich then we'll get a good President.


I think if you look at national polls, you'll find that people DO want good jobs, good govt services, infrastructure, fewer wars, etc. Nobody elected Obama to give tax cuts to the rich, or fight more wars. He won based on the economy, job creation, etc. And he has failed completely to deliver. There are very fundamental economic problems he has completely failed to address in any meaningful way. We were ready for big change. We asked for it. Where is it?

Instead he did what exactly? Obamacare? (what the fuck is that supposed to do again, and when does it actually take effect?) United States of Goldman Sacchs? More big oil. More wars. More political infighting.

We are worse off now than we were 4 years ago.
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Re: Obama is the worst president in history- discuss

Postby WickerNipple » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:34 pm

I want more bombing of brown people.

4 more years! 4 more years!
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Re: Re: Obama is the worst president in history- discuss

Postby elrodogg » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:50 pm

mattbird wrote:Instead he did what exactly? Obamacare? (what the fuck is that supposed to do again, and when does it actually take effect?)


It actually did a lot to change health insurance for the better. For example; no more lifetime limits, preexisting condition drops, more protection for kiddie insurance.

The whole exchange thing hasn't happened yet, but it also has great potential to lower the cost of insurance (at least in theory).

Also in that bill was a change to student loans which vastly lowered the interest rate on them.

Obamacare wasn't all that liberals/dems wanted but it was still a good bill.
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Re: Obama is the worst president in history- discuss

Postby mattbird » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:57 pm

then why have my company's health care costs gone up, and we get less coverage in return? Same plan, same provider.
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Re: Obama is the worst president in history- discuss

Postby WickerNipple » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:00 pm

My health insurance costs haven't gone up.

Oh wait, i have none.
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Re: Obama is the worst president in history- discuss

Postby elrodogg » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:29 pm

mattbird wrote:then why have my company's health care costs gone up, and we get less coverage in return? Same plan, same provider.


Well if you get less coverage, then it isn't the same plan. They may have kept the same name, but the product they sold your company and the price changed. :D

The Obamacare answer; the cost savings measures haven't gone into effect yet. There were two principle mechanisms to reduce the cost of health care insurance. First was the exchanges, the idea being that in many states (like virtually all of them) there are only one or two insurance companies, maybe three that sell insurance policies within those states. If people are able to purchase policies from out of state vendors, then it would increase competition and that would in turn lower the cost of insurance (at least in theory capitalism and competition is supposed to lead to lower prices, no?).

The other main mechanism was the individual mandate (which while it may or may not be unconstitutional as to whether government can impose a mandate for people to buy insurance under the interstate commerce clause, it really depends on what your view of governmental powers is and there are good arguments on both sides to that debate). If everyone purchased insurance then the pool of insured would be larger and the cost would go down. Most people who don't have insurance (like andy) are generally healthy (like our friendly cigarette huffing andy). If more healthy people buy insurance, then the cost goes down.

It would also lower the cost of health care on the emergency care end, since people who aren't insured, would be going to a doctor more regularly and be seen before their diseases develop into more serious (and expensive to treat) conditions. If someone who can't afford to pay walks into a hospital, they find out he has xyz condition, they treat him, he can't pay, the hospital incurs that fee and passes it to the rest of the customers in the form of higher prices, which leads to higher insurance cost. Now, if that same customer was seen 6 months earlier, given a pill and cured, then he wouldn't go into the hospital later on. A family practice doctor proscribing a pill is way less expensive than the battery of tests and treatments that a hospital has to give.

The long answer (though when actually written out is short) - insurance companies are for profit institutions and never fail to seize an opportunity to make even bigger profits. they get away with charging more because they can. In many states, individual companies can operate as a virtual monopoly. The goal of insurance companies isn't to provide you coverage, but to make a profit. The more care they deny you, for the larger the price, the better they are doing (from their perspective).

IMO, Obamacare is a good bill, but not a great one. If they went the full distance and had managed to get a single payer government run system in place, the costs would have gone down tremendously. If for no other reason than you take the profit motive out of insurance. think about it, if the company didn't care about making money then every dollar that the insurance companies currently make, would be a dollar lower in price. Government doesn't need to make a price the way for profit corporations with shareholders do. I think it's Vermont (may be New Hampshire, regardless it's a new england hippy state) that is planning on putting together a state-wide system sometime in the next couple of years.
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