Buffmanders and MCs

Moderator: The Gunslinger

Buffmanders and MCs

Postby GreyDragoon » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:58 pm

Since Pete asked for another thread :)

The relevant rule here is on page 39 - BRB, first paragraph under the Independent Character section.
"Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a single model (such as most vehicles and Monstrous Creatures). They can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

Bolded the key phrase. So while an IC cannot join a unit that will always consist of a single non-IC model (Wraithknights come to mind) that is not the case with Riptide Units. Riptide Units are variable size of 1-3, with 1 Riptide and 2 Drones. The drones are not wargear, and are actual models. Now, as to if an IC can join a Riptide Unit that doesn't currently have drones with it. While of course at that time it's just a single model, that makes it no less joinable then say a crisis suit that has been purchased alone as a 1 model unit. It mentions Monstrous Creatures, but only as an example of units that predominantly come as single model units.

So the rule has nothing to do with if you're a MC or not. It only means that ICs cannot join Vehicle Squadrons, or Units that can never be purchased/fielded as more than a single model. Hence why about a half dozen or so lists at Mechanicon got crapped on by that house rule that Riptides couldn't be joined by an IC unless they had actually bought with them one or more shielded missile drone. Unless you know of an FAQ speaking to this issue (and I'll be the first to admit that I am not on my game when it comes to FAQs) than RAW a one model unit of Riptide can be joined by ICs.
GreyDragoon
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:54 pm
Location: Westchester

Re: Buffmanders and MCs

Postby deFl0 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:58 am

Yup. Just so everyone understands the argument the big word is ALWAYS.

Tau players interpret the rules that because they have the option of taking more than one model in their riptide unit, Riptides should get the boon of a monstrous creature in a multiple model squad.

The one thing that I will disagree with what Kenny says, is that Riptides are not a 1 - 3 unit. Their codex clearly says, "Unit composition 1 Riptide Shas'vre". In the options, it says you may add shield drones. Which is a big difference. This is identical to Hive Tyrannts. The Hive guard and drones have special rules to attach to the a single monstrous creature. To use an example, vehicles that can be taken as multiples are always displayed as vehicle squadrons 1 to 3.

The obvious RIA is that the clarification is for monstrous creatures with retinues like hive tyrannts, where you might have a Tyranid Prime attached and the hive guard get shot first leaving a situation where the hive tyrant and the prime would be in a unit together.

As for RAW, I think it's pretty clear if you take a single monstrous creature they are always going to be a single monstrous creature unit in the game and thus should follow the single monstrous creature rules that a very clear that the monstrous creature can't be joined by an IC.

One last final point. I don't think an IC can join single crisis suit...

Anyway, discuss away.
deFl0
 
Posts: 3992
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:52 pm

Re: Buffmanders and MCs

Postby GreyDragoon » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:30 pm

There is no such thing as "the single monstrous creature rules" anywhere in the BRB. The inclusion of the words "Monstrous Creatures" in the IC rules is as an example, and it clearly states "most", indicating that while most Monstrous Creature units will run afoul of this rule, not all do. The fact that the Riptide is a MC ends up basically irrelevant to the discussion, what is important is the question - Is a Riptide unit a unit that always consists of a single model?

There are numerous units which are multi-model units but may be taken as size one and indeed are written in their codex's as Unit Composition of one. Examples include Crisis Suits, Canoptek Spyders, Canoptek Wraiths, Carnifex's, Royal Courts, and Tau Command Teams. All of which can be taken with additional models added into their unit at cost, and all of which can be joined by ICs.

The only potential interpretation of the rule I see going into your argument is that if the unit is either reduced to a single model or is purchased for this game as a single model, then ICs cannot join or must leave the unit. But there are no rules written into the book for an IC being kicked out of a unit due to its size being reduced, so I doubt that was intended and if so would open up a huge can of worms because there are simply no rules for how that works. In addition, I've never heard of anyone having a problem with an IC joining up to any of those previous examples simply because they came as a single model to the table, and they're no different than a Riptide that is taken without drones.

The fact that it's a drone as opposed to another monstrous creature in the unit doesn't mean anything. They're not wargear, they're actual models with statlines and such and thus beef up the unit composition to multi-model units with all of the additional rules (mostly negative in the case of the riptide) that come with it such as LD checks.

Pete and I will likely have to agree to disagree on this one, but anyone else have an opinion on this rules decision?
GreyDragoon
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:54 pm
Location: Westchester

Re: Buffmanders and MCs

Postby elrodogg » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:19 pm

I don't know about you, but I apply the rule to the game as it would happen in-game. Therefore, in each game you attempt to join an IC to the monstrous creature, you review the rules for having an IC join a monstrous creature. Oh look, this game it's always going to be a single monstrous creature and therefore the IC cannot join it.

I certainly don't buy the argument optional additional troops that weren't purchased change the composition of what was actually purchased. You didn't purchase them in your roster, so you don't get a benefit from them. You should only get benefits of units that you actually pay points for.

At best, in favor of the Tau army, it's a dark dark shade of grey. But IMO, it's pretty clear to me that you can't have a buffmander join a riptide.
Fast, like kittens with jetpacks.
User avatar
elrodogg
 
Posts: 5401
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:21 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Buffmanders and MCs

Postby Guy In Suit » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:38 pm

BREAKING NEWS: GW RIGHTS SHITTY RULES! MORE AT 11...
2014: 91/52
User avatar
Guy In Suit
 
Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:12 pm

Re: Buffmanders and MCs

Postby Ancow » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:42 pm

BREAKING NEWS: MALIFAUX HENCHMEN MISUSE HOMONYMS
User avatar
Ancow
 
Posts: 1461
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:23 pm

Re: Buffmanders and MCs

Postby deFl0 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:07 pm

lol.

Agreed on the MC front. I also agree with your other example. I don't think ICs can join units of a single Crisis Suit, a Canoptek Spyder, a Canoptek Wraith, or a Carnifex. Well unless they were bought as more than a unit of one at the beginning of the game.

The question is if a unit that is bought as a single model, always consists as a single model.

Maybe I should try that with my taxes. I'm a unit of one, but I could potentially be married and have kids... So I probably should start claiming married status and dependents now :lol:
deFl0
 
Posts: 3992
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:52 pm

Re: Buffmanders and MCs

Postby Guy In Suit » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:22 pm

LOL gotta respect a quality burn.
2014: 91/52
User avatar
Guy In Suit
 
Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:12 pm

Re: Buffmanders and MCs

Postby GreyDragoon » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:42 pm

deFl0 wrote:The question is if a unit that is bought as a single model, always consists as a single model.


Agreed, that's the only real question, if it runs afoul of the always consists of a single model rule because it was taken as a single model in your FoC. You could interpret it that way, or as it only running afoul of the rule if there is no option to take it as a multi-model unit. My read is that it only matters if the unit can never consist of 2 or more models period.


It's not super important, you can always pay the drone tax and get a missile pod and ablative t6 wound with a 4+ invuln into the unit. So if you want this to work with that interpretationiy's doable.
GreyDragoon
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:54 pm
Location: Westchester

Re: Buffmanders and MCs

Postby The Gunslinger » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:48 pm

GreyDragoon wrote:There is no such thing as "the single monstrous creature rules" anywhere in the BRB. The inclusion of the words "Monstrous Creatures" in the IC rules is as an example, and it clearly states "most", indicating that while most Monstrous Creature units will run afoul of this rule, not all do. The fact that the Riptide is a MC ends up basically irrelevant to the discussion, what is important is the question - Is a Riptide unit a unit that always consists of a single model?


"Most" is likely only referring to vehicles & not MC's. Otherwise it would say most for both. But this is GW we're talking about. :)

"Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a single model (such as most vehicles and Monstrous Creatures). They can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"


Seeing as how there are no rules regarding what to do when a unit containing a MC & an IC get shot down to just the IC & 1 MC, I think it's clear that they did not intend an IC to be able to join in the first place. Also, I get the feeling the rule above was written by someone who didn't even consider that there are units with at least 1 MC & how IC's interact with them. Just by addressing "most vehicles & MC's" within parenthesis gives it an off the cuff aspect. It's not definitive enough, as in listing exactly every type of unit makeup there is. Needed to be clearly listed & defined.

Like Kenny or Pete pointed out, unit composition for riptides is 1. As in "always 1", like the rule says in an underwhelming, undefinitive way.

BTW, maybe it's just my experience but I've never seen or heard of anyone add a nid prime to a unit of carnies. Maybe heard of the prime joining a tyrant with guard, but that just seems wrong. Probably cuz all prior editions never allowing it. It's possible GW was thinking along the same lines: couldn't do it before, so don't need to be so specific now.

Obviously, I'm not giving any real weight to the argument with this speculation, but the compelling evidence for me is the lack of rules about an IC needing to leave when it comes down to 1 MC & 1 IC. The speculation only backs it up.
:2guns:
User avatar
The Gunslinger
 
Posts: 3505
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:48 pm


Return to Warhammer 40,000

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron