New Nids List feedback

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New Nids List feedback

Postby Katurian » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:33 pm

Hey guys

so I had one game now with the new Nids codex and I think I've worked out something that might be fun to play and could win a few games from time to time. I'm curious how you think this would run against you're specific armies and how you'd counter it. Specifically riptide spam (looking at you Kenny haha) and Taudar.

HQ:
Flyrant (200 pts base) with the two Twin-Linked Brain Leach Worms (6 str 6 ap- shots each) at +30 and a haywire template (electroshock grubs) +10 plus the Ymgarl Factor (+1 to save, attack ,or str much change each turn at top of assault phase) 40 pts for a grand total of 295.

Flyrant with AG, Electroshock grubs, and TWBLD for 255

In elites,
three seperate units of 1 zoathropes have Warpblast (2 charges) plus 1 additional power roll each on the Hive Mind table. Mastery 2. Warpblast fires once for each model in the unit and is now a St 10 AP2 lance or st 5 Ap3 blast 18" and 24" respectively.

Troops
vanilla termagants (unchanged) at 120pts
Tervagon with regeneration (195+ 30 for 225).

Now the meat. In Heavy Support A deathstar of three carnifexes each with 2 twinlinked brain leach devourers for a total of 36 twin linked st 6 ap- shots per turn at a base cost of 120 + 30 each) with adrenal glands (fleet + furious charge at 45 pts for all three) and regeneration (30) for a grand total of 585 points.

The flyrants and the crone will deploy behind them flanked by the zoathropes. Theoretically on one table edge or the other but it might be better to run straight up the middle since this is an assault charge and most units can really outshoot 24" range anyway. I'm open to discussion on this. I'm also curious as to the wisdom of going second.

In terms of the important questions for Take All Comers:
1) How will this deal with hordes? The fexes high rate of fire and its high toughness vs horde level strength (3/4 wounding on 6's saving 3+) would give him a good ability to mow down a lot of infantry before it gets close backed up by three AP 3 St 5 basts from the zoathrope and 12 more twin linked shots from the flyrant.
2) How will this deal with elite infantry (TEQ): The only AP2 realistically available to nids outside of the high priced Exorcine and Zoathrope warpblast (three shots with a Deny chance at BS 4) is assault. So the fex star will need to roll into them with its high str HoW and high st (9 or 10) AP close combat attacks. Against hammernators with a 3++ the most realistic option is high rate of fire because in assault the fexes will get torn up from Ap2 hammers then strike at initiative 1 the next turn.
3) How will this deal with Flyers: The Flyrant will have to swat them down with his str 6 shots or a str 7 vector strike. In a flyer list, he'll likely hang back out of LOS to prevent a flyer coming on from dealing him first damage. The zoathropes might have some luck as well with their lances but even at full strength, 9 lances snap firing works out to: 22% to destroy per turn (.83 hull points removed per turn). This is likely the biggest weakness to the list. FMC less so as they can easily be grounded and then engaged by the death star.
4) Against AV14 or high toughness: Assault by the Fex star can easily crack and landraider or take down a T9 MC. Zoathropes can also lance at st 10 ap 2.
5) Against light armor, the flyrant can easily get a rear shot by flying behind it. It can also be lanced from the front on a 2+ or shot to death by the st 6 fex guns if they get close enough. The Flyrants also have a haywire template if St 6 shots or st 7 vectorstrike wont penetrate.
6: Redundancy. The fex star shares some overlap with both hte hive tyrants and the zoathrope. If the fexes fall out of synapse they are fearless so if the tervigon gets sniped, one of the flyrants can dash back to save the gaunts from killing themselves. There are a lot of eggs in one fex basket though at over 585 points over 3 T6 4W models with a 3+

The first thing that jumps out at me is how efficient is this carnifex star at 585 points. in an 1850 game thats a little under 1/3rd of my army neutered in 12 AP2 wounds. THere's also the paucity of scoring in the tervigon and the gaunts but I think the strategy is more deny the other player objectives and sit the tervagon on one and send spawned gants to claim whatever can be and deny the rest.

So the fexes can roll up and unleash their torrent of fire. With some luck, one of the zoathrope squads (1 roll each x 3) or the hive tyrant (2 rolls each) will get Catalyst (feel no pain to caster and another unit) and onslaught (can run and shoot in the same turn). This can work without it but that really becomes a major force multiplier. The fexes move forward 6, run another d6 with reroll from fleet then shoot 18" (giving a 30" maximum threat) supported by hive tyrant fire and any zoathropes that don't have a support power (if suppressing with The Horror which forces a pinning test at -2 or Paroxysm which reduces WS and BS by D3 to a minimum of 1 or the aforementioned Catalyst or Onslaught will cast warpblast if in range. to knock out some armor saves.

In the next turn, the fexes will get shot up as they should be more or less in front and hopefully the scariest thing there but can regen enough wounds not to die in the first round of shooting. With the tyrants following behind, this ball of devourers can put out 60 st 6 ap - shots per turn with 24 of those now being precision shots (from the tyrants who are now characters) If the fexes manage to roll into combat they can really ruin someones day as well with 3 d3 hammer of wrath hits at str 10 with furious charge followed by 15 str 10 ap 2 close combat hits at WS3.

Meanwhile the tervigon and gaunts come in from reserve when they're good and ready and proceed to move up to claim any midfield objectives through spawning and the 30 st 3 AP 5 shots the gants can put out. The tevigon has regeneration so it can tank a few wounds as well.
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Re: New Nids List feedback

Postby ninjajuicer » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:34 am

If you need a hand with testing, let me know. I only have two riptides, but I've got a lot of marines.

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Re: New Nids List feedback

Postby elrodogg » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:40 am

There are a couple of overall things I took out of the Nid book thus far:

1- if you are going to play with big bugs, get a venomthrope. Shrouding will certainly help extend their lives. If you can hide the venomthrope from LOS, then even better otherwise it forces opposing target priority.

2- deathleaper - expect to see him every game. his -d3 to one opposing character's leadership is a giant middle finger to demon and farseer death star builds. he also makes deep strike better. that's a big deal since mawlocs and spore mines are no joke now for their points

3- I can't imagine a list with less than 100 guants (the first list I put together had 2x30 termas,10 termas and 30 hormas). I want to make outflanking hormagaunts work, but it will be tricky keeping them in psynapse range.

4- there is some good deep strike ability. mawlocs are stupid cheap at 140pts, spore mines are stupid cheap as well at 15pts for a squad. Combine with deathleaper and they're very accurrate reserve units.

5- carnifexes are very well priced at 120pts... yes you have to pay for guns but even the most expensive layouts are 160ish

6- i actually dig the hive crone - it's a versatile flier in that it has air supremacy, a decent ground attack weapon and a nasty s8 vector strike. it's no space dragon but fliers shouldn't be.
Last edited by elrodogg on Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Nids List feedback

Postby elrodogg » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:00 am

That isn't to say I understand all of the book.

I think the haruspex is simply too slow. I don't understand hand to hand critters that can't get into hand to hand. The warlord table is kinda stupid. Having access to only the nid psychic chart is annoying just for variety sake, even if the lore itself isn't bad.

Unfortunately, the biggest problem with the book is a repeat of GW's other big codex design disaster. No mycetic spore just like CSM got no drop pod. It really does seem like GW wants marines to be the only true source of a dynamic army delivery system.
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Re: New Nids List feedback

Postby GreyDragoon » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:27 pm

Riptide spam? Why I never.. ok yeah fair enough :)

Honestly I wouldn't be the best for nid feedback since I don't play from the mindset of a CC player. Looking at the book, Flyrant and Carnifex and Spores seem to be the big winners. Deathleaper is also neat, but isn't super relevant to my army. Definitely could be used to screw up Farseer lists, demon casters, and Librarians though.

Venomthrope should be money against anything other than Tau. Tau unfortunately has SMS to use against it even if you hide it out of visual, and if it's in visual it's likely a priority target.

Agreed entirely though, I don't understand why they didn't make better use of novel transportation methods.
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Re: New Nids List feedback

Postby ninjajuicer » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:59 pm

Quick question,

I've been listening to a fair few 'Nid battle reports when coding the last two weeks (Frontline Gaming, ect). One thing I've noticed is that players don't seem to have large numbers of cheap, scoring 'gaunts.

It seems to me that having multiple large blobs of cheap chap would be the way to go (I'm talking 4+ units of 30 'guants) and going for wins based on objectives. However, I don't see that happening in these battle reports. Is it impossible to handle truly large numbers of small bugs given the synapse rules? Or is it financially prohibitive? Or do 6th ed armies bring so much shooting that it is possible to just outright murder a horde army?
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Re: New Nids List feedback

Postby elrodogg » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:14 pm

I think its just timing and folks haven't made the adjustment just yet to fielding multiple blocks of guants. They're still making the transition from what worked in the last book to what will work in the new one. Every list I play around with has 3 blocks all of which are 25-30 strong.
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Re: New Nids List feedback

Postby ninjajuicer » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:05 pm

elrodogg wrote:I think its just timing and folks haven't made the adjustment just yet to fielding multiple blocks of guants. They're still making the transition from what worked in the last book to what will work in the new one. Every list I play around with has 3 blocks all of which are 25-30 strong.


Interesting. If you want to play against Tau this Saturday (assuming no events at the strat), let me know. I don't have enough riptides for a full tourney list, but I can field something solid.

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Re: New Nids List feedback

Postby WickerNipple » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:25 pm

Synapse is the reason people aren't playing with multiple huge gaunt blobs.
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Re: New Nids List feedback

Postby elrodogg » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:54 pm

WickerNipple wrote:Synapse is the reason people aren't playing with multiple huge gaunt blobs.


I guess the affects of a failed instinctive behavior check are amplified by the size of the unit. That said, being bigger lets you stay in psynapse easier. I also think a good nid army will have multiple sources of psynapse. A single tervignon with the norn crown and dominion gives a giant 24 radius zone of psynapse... add in regen, an aegis defense line and a venomthrope to his 6w t6 3+ AS profile and he isn't going anywhere. Throw in a flyrant or two, some zoanthropes and there should be ample synapse on the table.

Feed is the worst of the behavious, but even so it isn't "that" horrible. Hormagaunts being so cheap will likely be in synapse range of something just because there are so many. Mawlocs are ld8 and the 4-6 results don't matter (they either charge like you want in the assault, or they burrow in the movement phase). Carnifexes are slow and up the middle and likely to be range of zoanthropes (they are an excellent screen for them) or the tervignon.
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