tank shock and close combat

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Re: tank shock and close combat

Postby subversive » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:17 am

Rulesman: I think that makes sense for shooting, but not for tank shock, and here's why:
1. Shooting attacks kill. Tank Shock is just scary. No one dies from Tank Shock, they just get pushed out of the way.
2. Tank Shock is the tank's equivalent to assault. It's even under the "vehicles and assault" section. It's a lot more like assault than it is like shooting
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Re: tank shock and close combat

Postby -Rulesman » Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:54 am

Quote:
But since you only have to contact one enemy model for the whole unit to make a morale check, all you have to do is nick the corner of the base of that one guy sticking out at the edge of the scrum in order to force the check.


Mmmhhh. It's true although I think this is like squishing and using every bit of the rule in anyone's favour. It's not that your point of view is wrong; in fact it is technically correct as it is subversive's, although I would not see the rule in this way.

Quote:
Rulesman: I think that makes sense for shooting, but not for tank shock, and here's why:
1. Shooting attacks kill. Tank Shock is just scary. No one dies from Tank Shock, they just get pushed out of the way.
2. Tank Shock is the tank's equivalent to assault. It's even under the "vehicles and assault" section. It's a lot more like assault than it is like shooting.


In any case, what happens if a tank shocked unit falls back when already in close combat, the enemy pursues or consolidates?

I agree that Tank Shock needs something for it to be more used though.
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Re: tank shock and close combat

Postby Amazonwarlord » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:09 pm

Isn't hth a "swirling Melee" even before pile in moves and all??


I actually hope you can tank shock into melee... that would be cool
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Re: tank shock and close combat

Postby subversive » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:14 pm

Rulesman - Your second question is exactly why my club voted it down (though I was one of only a couple of dissenting voices): it seemed more likely to be an oversight by a copy+paste happy production team to forget to include the mention of no TS into close combat (the wording is apparently identical to 3rd ed, though I wasn't able to verify that since I don't have a 3rd ed rulebook) than that they forgot to include the entire mechanic for leaving combat as a result of tank shock. Basically the argument was "since you have to make up rules for how it works, it was probably a mistake."

AWL - the swirling melee verbiage is nice fluff, but has no real impact on how the rules are read because Tank Shock makes no reference to it. Tank shock doesn't actually kill anyone, although you're not allowed to pass over your own models, and the swirling melee part only explicitly effects shooting. From a fluff point of view, you could look at it as the tank rolling in to save the day and your own troops cheering while the enemy scatters. Personally, I like that visual. Some others did not, mostly because they were playing against an opponent who could make them test at -3 ld (me)
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Re: tank shock and close combat

Postby Flavius Infernus » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:38 pm

Quote:

what happens if a tank shocked unit falls back when already in close combat, the enemy pursues or consolidates?



This one is also in the rules:
"When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a Sweeping Advance...and can then make a Consolidate move." (43)

A unit that fails a morale check due to tank shock becomes a unit that is falling back. If they happened to be in combat when shocked, they are a unit that falls back from combat. The sweeping advance & consolodate rules on page 43 don't specify the reason why they are falling back, so they apply to any unit falling back for any reason.

For the record, I agree that this is probably an oversight. But it is what the rules say, and I don't think it's an imbalancing thing. Space marines still benefit from ATSKNF in the sweeping advance.
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Re: tank shock and close combat

Postby subversive » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:01 pm

The only question there is what falling back "from" combat means in this context: does it mean falling back while being involved in a close combat (situational: I just came from the park), or falling back as a result of close combat (causal: I got a cavity from all the sugary food I ate)? Alas, English is not the language of logic.

Sweeping Advance and Consolidate are covered in the rules governing the assault phase, and applying those rules to something that happens in the movement phase might be a bit of a stretch. For this reason, I'd err on the side of NOT making assault-governed moves. You'll probably have another shot at making them run off in a few minutes when you re-assault them anyway
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Re: tank shock and close combat

Postby subversive » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:06 pm

further thinking on that: it says "the victors make a sweeping advacne..." Who was the "victor" there? I think that "from" close combat should be read "as a result of," because of the context
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Re: tank shock and close combat

Postby deFl0 » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:18 pm

I sat down with a fine tooth comb and went through these rules last night. I think you guys are on the right track.

All of this happens in the movement phase. So my plague marines are in combat with your eldar guardians. I tank shock the guardians, they fail morale and thus fall back. Now it's still the movement phase and my plague marines are now unlocked. I can now move them and shoot, then re assault the guardians. The guardians have to make another morale check or be destroyed. If they pass they get chewed up in combat again.

In anycase, a pretty nasty tactic.

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Re: tank shock and close combat

Postby -Rulesman » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:56 am

My cons:

Quote:
Sweeping Advance and Consolidate are covered in the rules governing the assault phase, and applying those rules to something that happens in the movement phase might be a bit of a stretch. For this reason, I'd err on the side of NOT making assault-governed moves.


Agreed. In any other way some weird combos may arise as a result of mixing "phases"

Quote:
2. Tank Shock is the tank's equivalent to assault. It's even under the "vehicles and assault" section. It's a lot more like assault than it is like shooting.


I don't think so. Although it is more like a tank assault than shooting, it is a tank shock, not an assault. not shooting, because it happens in the movent phase, not in any other phase.

Everybody here agrees tanks can not pass over models in close combat. What happens if after consolidation moves, etc. etc. there are still models in that unit not locked in combat (very rare but still possible). If they are not in close combat then the tank can pass over them, isn't it? I think it can't but I'm open to discuss.

Just to add to the already complicated mix:

Provided that tanks can see and shoot over other troops (friends or foes) whenever they want (mostly), why can't they move over them?
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Re: tank shock and close combat

Postby subversive » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:10 am

Quote:
Everybody here agrees tanks can not pass over models in close combat.

Sorry, did I miss something? It looked to me as if everyone was agreeing the opposite, that a tank CAN pass over a model in close combat... Or do you mean your own models in close combat
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