Obsidian Guard comments here

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Re: Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby big al » Wed May 20, 2009 5:39 pm

Anger Worm wrote:If you can't make ITP and fear work with a LD10 army and BSB I don't know what your problem is.

Ok, a Mv 3 unit that can't flee, always gets charged, and generally doesn't get a swing back is supposed to be uber? let's think about this, anyone without the armor breaking capabilities to attack these guys are going to avoid them.
IMO they NEED stubborn, I've playtested a game with them, and they suck.

Anger Worm wrote:My main quibble, first and foremost in game terms, and secondly in fluff, is their survivability. These sound like CD's uber-elite. While I think a ward is too extreme, they should be more survivable in lieu of being stubborn.


so you think bretts are too extreeme? 2+ armor and a 5+ ward vs str 5+. No one crys cheese against bretts anymore but wards on an infantry unit with a decent armor is too powerful?
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Re: Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Grimstonefire » Wed May 20, 2009 7:50 pm

Ironbreakers seem to do pretty well without any special rules...

Having even one is a bonus! But you have to pay for it. If you want the cheap unit stick to only stubborn (test at 14 pts a model).
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Re: Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby big al » Wed May 20, 2009 9:27 pm

What makes the ironbreakers so good is the BSB support with all those runes, which the CDs do not have.
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Re: Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Garrett » Thu May 21, 2009 12:21 am

Agreed. I've used the Obsidian Guard in every game so far, and in every game they either get avoided or dogpiled so they lose combat through static rez and 1-2 wounds. You can't maneuver out of a flank charge (and in one case, a rear charge!) worth a damn as dwarves.
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Re: Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Grimstonefire » Thu May 21, 2009 6:42 am

I've got this rule on my version (immortals):

Cursed Blades:
The great axes the Immortals carry have been thrice cursed by the most unholy of spells, marking all those killed by them for eternal damnation.
The Immortals may re-roll failed to wound rolls.

With stubborn and a 4+ AS that would hopefully mean they would avoid dying to static CR.
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Re: Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Garrett » Thu May 21, 2009 10:08 am

They really don't even need an additional special rule-dropping ITP and adding Stubborn is enough, I think. You can either go sword/board for near-unkillable bunker, or great weapon to do some killing. Stubborn fixes the one real problem they have-getting dogpiled and beaten by sheer numbers because they're about as maneuverable as a lead brick. You also don't want to make them too good, because we're trying to avoid army book creep.
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Re: Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Grimstonefire » Thu May 21, 2009 1:09 pm

Agreed, it does basically come down to that; bunker or hunter.

The rest of the list to me looks heavily focused as a counter attacking force, with all the cheap core units there mainly to fix the enemy in place than to do any real damage. It plays similar to Dwarfs in that respect, but we sacrifice reliable fixing units with more fast units (pun intended).

My concern would actually be that aside from whittling down enemy units with the war machines, the list is just not strong enough to hold and then to counter attack against even moderately powerful builds from other lists.

Based on this I think the hunter approach is not only more appropriate, but essential.
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Re: Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby mattbird » Thu May 21, 2009 1:16 pm

Grimstonefire wrote:I've got this rule on my version (immortals):

Cursed Blades:
The Immortals may re-roll failed to wound rolls.


I think this is a GREAT idea. I'd extend it to hand weapons as well as great weapons for this unit.
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Re: Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby big al » Thu May 21, 2009 4:56 pm

If you made the unit stubborn, they wouldn't be like black guard, because all the BG units you see have the ASF banner, don't give this unit that option, make the player spend an ass ton of points on a lord to get the ASF great weapon (whihc should be 50pts max IMHO) to kill shit so you can actually swing back.
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Re: Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Garrett » Fri May 22, 2009 12:32 am

Grimstonefire wrote:My concern would actually be that aside from whittling down enemy units with the war machines, the list is just not strong enough to hold and then to counter attack against even moderately powerful builds from other lists.

Based on this I think the hunter approach is not only more appropriate, but essential.


Not sure about that myself, to be honest. With a couple of the chaos-armor equipped warrior units, with attachments, and the obsidian guard, you can probably handle a charge for turn or two...providing there's some mechanism for stubborn in the army. I still think the easiest way to do it is to change the ITP banner to a Stubborn banner, myself. It also doesn't force people to use it, because some people are going to go magic heavy and forgo a BSB. It's another way to play the list, I think.
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