Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

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Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

Postby mattbird » Sat May 23, 2009 7:34 pm

!
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Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

Postby elrodogg » Sat May 23, 2009 7:54 pm

New rules are where?
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Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

Postby mattbird » Sat May 23, 2009 8:18 pm

in the version 2 pdf.
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Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

Postby elrodogg » Sat May 23, 2009 9:50 pm

roxxor
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Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

Postby Zhorn » Tue May 26, 2009 8:08 am

Since i cannot find any updated rules for the demoneater and "that other thread" seems missing i'll briefly write down my thoughts on this device.

The demoneater is good. And needed to get some CR via killing.

To make it less of a mandatory choice, several steps could be made. My proposal is Mv 6, 4 wounds, "grinding" (d3+2 impact hits in subsequent combat rounds) done last (aka "strike last" as opposed to "strike first" like it is now). Points cost somewhere between 100 and 130 points.

Reducing the movement value to 6 is huge. No more 3d6 flee/pursue will reduce the effectiveness of the machine by a lot. This would make bull centaurs a better choice in comparison as running down a defeated opposing unit is the great weakness of infantry armies - and dwarf armies in particuar. The demoneater would no longer be the easy way out of this.

Another step would be to improve the other "killy" choices in the CD arsenal, namely the golem unit to get some wanted competition in that regard within the CD army list. As it is now, the CD list needs some unit(s) to do the killing/running down and to this date the demoneater is the best unit to do both of this.

By reducing the Mv to 6 the running down part is taken away from this unit.

The killing part still stands and i would like to see a choice possible to the CD player which unit(s) to choose for that part of the CD list.

Making golems a competitive choice in that regard would open up a lot of new possibilities on how to construct fun and diverse CD army lists. See discussion in the apropriate thread.
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Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

Postby mattbird » Tue May 26, 2009 9:12 am

I think Kevin is definitely changing the movement to 6", probably with a points increase as well.
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Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

Postby Larro » Wed May 27, 2009 11:14 pm

mattbird wrote:I think Kevin is definitely changing the movement to 6", probably with a points increase as well.


Decreasing the movement from 7 to 6, and UPPING the points, sounds like way too extreme a solution. Take a step back for a moment and ask yourself what seems to be the issue? It's not the movement, but rather the auto-hits. Why not keep the M7, add a 4th wound a la a regular chariot, and make it do d3+1 autohits instead of d3+2, and make it done at the Centaurs init, or just make it go last in non-charging rounds?

Seriously, I've yet to hear anyone say that as a SPECIAL choice, a CW Chariot, a DE Chariot, or a HE Lion Chariot are broken or OTT choices. They're all ~130. 2 of them cause Fear, with Hatred and ASF respectively. The other one has S4 horses and diesel crewman. All of them charge 14+. All pursue 3d6. All have 4 wounds.

All this has my scratching my head as to why we need to charge 150, or even 130, for a M6, 3 wound, non-fear-causing, non-hatred, non-ASF CD "chariot" that is clearly inferior to any of these aforementioned choices.

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Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

Postby Guy In Suit » Thu May 28, 2009 7:57 am

why have the autohits at all? especially when fighting to the flank. Thats what makes it so different from other chariots, and thats the point of contention. No one is getting bent out of shape about M7.
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Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

Postby elrodogg » Thu May 28, 2009 8:42 am

Guy In Suit wrote: No one is getting bent out of shape about M7.


Actually that's my chief complaint (well m7 combined with the cost).

Dwarf lists have always had problems with opposing units sitting 10ish inches away and unloading into the dwarfs who have no respite but shooting. Having a pair of chariots to create a threat range in front of the dwarf unis is huge. It changes the way opposing armies play. However, they shouldn't go too far. M6 creates a 12" don't go here zone that fills that zone. A m7 or 8 chariot I feel goes too far.

Dwarf armies should have limited access to 3d6 pursuit moves. Having 2 sources of 3d6 is enough between bull centaurs and hogobbo wolf riders. New units we are introducing should not add another source of 3d6.

In a dwarf list of any sort, one of the hardest challenges is to actually win combats. You're very good at sticking around in h2h, but flat out winning a fight by 3 or 4 getting the opposing unit to break is a challenge. Having a chariot which can supply a good number of kills accross a small frontage really helps solve that issue.

It's tough to compare chariots accross armies. Having access to a chariot combined with access to ranked dwarf units means that chariot really should be priced higher than it would if it were combined with say marauders. The DE chariot also has a point reduction because it is stupid, otherwise it would be 130ish. For the chaos dwarf army to have one, my gut tells me 130 is the right ballpak. If it shows up being too high or too low it can be adjusted.
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Re: Daemoneater version 2 comments here!

Postby mattbird » Thu May 28, 2009 9:36 am

+1.
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