V3 Juggernaut comments here!

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V3 Juggernaut comments here!

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:41 am

comments here
jer732 wrote:Birdoff makes me want to rage quit life
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Re: V3 Juggernaut comments here!

Postby Aves » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:27 pm

HMM, its rather weak now, for its points. In challenges it does not count as mount, so when compared to stegadon its , well useless.
Also since it is a single model character should replace crew, just to mantain rules integrity, everywhere else characters are replacing 1 crew.
Another thing, when we add randomizeing in shooting phase and posibility to chose whats being hit in close combat makes whole Juggernaut , useless, the 3+ armor save the dwarf gain = heavy armor and shield. Maby rules should be considered for revising? If Jugger is destroyed units kinda falls down, following this maby we could assume Jugger is not part of the unit, so it works as hard cover for unit of 10 dwarfs, for all melee attacks and shooting attacks with strenght lower than 6. Fot Ranged strenght 6 attacks the shoot is randowmised but dwarfs are counted as hidden in the building so template weapons would hit DX dwarfs with lower strenght, if 5-6 is rolled and whole structure otherwise.

I will extend this idea tomorrow as its getting late.
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Re: V3 Juggernaut comments here!

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:35 pm

It does count as a ridden monster in all respects unless otherwise noted; it's in the rules in the 3rd lorem ipsum paragraph. As it has no attacks, though, it would hardly be useful in a challenge. Otherwise I agree with you.

I have fielded it in 2 games so far, and been awfully happy with it. I would definitely try to fit one in 2250 games. Give it a go in a game or 2 and see how you feel.
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Re: V3 Juggernaut comments here!

Postby Aves » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:28 am

OK back to what i proposed.

As such Jugger is best compared to Stegadon, stegadon is immune to psychology, stubborn, and has terror. Why,... to revaluate it, if stegadon wasnt imune to psychology then it would have to roll for panic for destroyed unit, and with clever magic/shooting at the expense of 150 player could get rid of model for 300-400 pts. It has stubborn so unit of 40 skavenslaves (under 120 pts) would not break it due to static combat result. All those feattures along with impact hits and normal attacks are worth around 300 points. From designer point of view its no good when uneven number of points have a fihgting chance against each other, so by defoult 300 points of juggernaut should have 50-50 chance against another unit for same points.

If we dont want unit aka Stegadon, then mechanics could be changed, not to increase the power level, but to distinguish this model.

My proposal is based on several outlines, 1st Jugger is a siege tower, so its more about unit riding it than actual machine, more over crew has separate stats so its totaly unlike chariot. Hence i propose to make it more into a moving terain than a unit. Unit on it has no melee proves, maby when character is on it but otherwise not so much. So it a fire suport.

So lets take away all the Jugger's stats no S, no T .
Operators have a hard cover so -2 to BS.
When hit by template weapon unit receives hits like unit in a building, so roll a dice that normaly is being rolled for wounds and unit suffers this amount of hits with half of weapons maximum strenght. So for a stone thrower it would be D6 S5 hits, for a small cannon D3 S5, for bolt thrower D3 S3. Saved is modified by strenght as normal, all due some of the impact being modified by Juggers strong hide.
In combat 5 models can fight from Jugger and 5 can fight against Jugeer, combat results are acounted for only from wounds inficted, if Jugger is broken in such a way it only runs away a single D6, my assumption here is that remaining dwarfs are trying to desperately disengage but Jugger is a slow unit. If all crew is killed Jugger is destroyed. As its huge bulk is being destroyed units cant overrun throught it. Unlike with normal buildings calvary models can charge at it so can monsters. Juggernauts crew has save value of 4+. Crew counts as defending so there is no charge bonuses for the attackers (sic dwarf Initiative :S)
Move: Jugernaout can move up to 6" every turn, it can not charge, if it moves in contact with an enemy it will inflict D6 S5 impact hits. Juggernaut can not move if it is engaged in close combat as crew is too busy fending of the attackers.
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Re: V3 Juggernaut comments here!

Postby Maul » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:27 am

I was just curious how much this unit had actually been on the table. It is pretty complicated and expensive. I have trouble seeing how this unit would perform in combat. If the tower does no damage and you just have 10 dwarves in combat, that sure is not much. I think it will work better with better blunderbuss rules (several str 3 armor piercing short range shots is pretty lame) on the way in and some possible stand and shoot benefits. I would think it pretty easy to loose combat and then what. Fleeing with this things seems to be a disaster. It strikes me as needing to be unbreakable as long as the jugger is still intact.

There is a weird bit of disharmony here. This thing, at least the model, is a lrage moving tower of destruction. Movement 6 seems fine, but charging 12 strikes me as pretty fast for a siege tower.
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Re: V3 Juggernaut comments here!

Postby mattbird » Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:54 am

people have used it in at least a half-dozen games i can recall, and been happy with it. I used it in 2 games myself, and found it great. If I were going with just base magic defense and had points to spend, I would field it in 2250 games. 2000, likely not.
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Re: V3 Juggernaut comments here!

Postby Bleyden » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:24 pm

Ive had an idea.

Instead of it being a Seige Tower (who plays seiges?) make it a MASSIVE Inferno Golem. It can have 2 Eruption Guns on its shoulder and have its Phlegm power (S5 breath) coming from its mouth. The driver could be in a cage in its chest.

It can have M6 (and can march) WS4 BS0 S5 T6 W5 I2 A4 Ld10
3 CD crew (1 on each gun and driver)

Terror, Unbreakable, Large Target, Cant join units, 4+AS that cant be modified (like my ideas for Inferno Golems), Gives crew a 2+AS.

Can be a mount for any character and so gives them a Montrous mount that when its rider is killed becomes completely inanimate (no driver) but doesnt count VPs unless its destroyed.

Point cost 380 (plucked the number out of thin air)

This is just an idea in my head. I think it would look AWESOME and gives the CD a terror causer. Its an unbreakable unit that is a lot of points but makes a lot of impact. Basically imagine a Stegadon on Steroids. Characters replace the driver.

What do you guys think? Obv everything can change, I just think the idea of a Seige Tower is a bit meh. Also dont call it a Juggernaut as there already is one of those for other Chaos Armies. Anyone got any different names?
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Re: V3 Juggernaut comments here!

Postby DarkbloodSkullpulper » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:12 pm

Bleyden wrote:Ive had an idea.

Instead of it being a Seige Tower (who plays seiges?) make it a MASSIVE Inferno Golem. It can have 2 Eruption Guns on its shoulder and have its Phlegm power (S5 breath) coming from its mouth. The driver could be in a cage in its chest.


You can pretty much model it however you want it to look. In fact, you're pretty much gonna have to. Good luck finding the original.

What do you guys think? Obv everything can change, I just think the idea of a Seige Tower is a bit meh. Also dont call it a Juggernaut as there already is one of those for other Chaos Armies. Anyone got any different names?


The Superdestructonator. The Ensquishinator. The Obliterosplatinator. Mr. Thingie.
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Re: V3 Juggernaut comments here!

Postby Chuckman » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:55 am

The Juggernaut seige tower seems overpriced and underpowered. There are a couple of things I think should be changed.
If this is a basically a machine I think it should be unbreakable, not just immune to psychology (think steam tank here). Also it should be able to grind into combat like a steam tank. Having said that it should hit a lot less powerful than a steam tank, maybe the same impact rules as the Chaos Dwarf chariots. D6 +2 impact on charge, D3 +2 impact other turns. That would be about right, an unbreakable seige tower that can shoot flames that basically counts like a chariot.
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Re: V3 Juggernaut comments here!

Postby Larro » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:13 am

I agree that it's overpriced. It's half as effective as a steam tank and more expensive. Kinda has me scratching my head. Not that we need *another* Stank, but giving the thing some HTH bite wouldn't be a bad thing for 330 pts.

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