V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

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Re: V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:33 pm

What are you doing here?


You mean beyond the fact that I'm a 4-time GT winner and consistent Top 10 finisher? Or the fact that I'm actually part of the Warmonger Club? Which part is confusing you as to why I'm here repeatedly commenting with logic and substance instead of falling back on fluff explanations to bail out illogical suggestions like you?

I disagree, armies are ought to have different mechanics to introduce a variety of playable options to the game. this variety comes from fluff, wood elves live in woods and like bows, thats why rules are representing it.

Getting owned by Magic sounds like a great mechanic, and definitely one we need to incorporate into the present WHFB scene. :roll:

Just a thought - if you don't allow Demonsmiths to take Scrolls, ANYONE going to a tournament with a true thought of performing and/or finishing with a competitive overall position WILL take the HP by default because you need scrolls in a tournament, particularly these days. It's not an advantage to have Scrolls be an option for a Hero; it's Warhammer 101 - EVERY army has this option. You don't win and consistently perform in a tournament with 4 dice and ONE scroll equivalent. If you think you do, I'd suggest you play vs. real armies piloted by competent generals and not flea-ridden small town comic shop gamers or 13 year olds at the GW stores.

- Larry
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"Larry was right. I know he never gets tired of hearing that." - Canterman
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Re: V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Border Reiver » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:44 pm

Larry, I realize that the previous statement was out of line, but yours went that far out of line and took a giant step further.

Rather than use the standard dispel scroll, do what the dwarfs do - and make the firestone of Uzkul a one shot dispel item available to Daemonsmiths only and move it to the enchanted item list and get rid of the ward save effect. 25 pts value. Similar to the Dwarf rune of Spell Breaking.
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Re: V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby mattbird » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:47 pm

Aves wrote:
This is a forum for experienced WHFB players who are tournament players


What are you doing here?



First of all, total win! Get this man a Warmonger Club t-shirt, asap.

Second of all, we're all on the same team here, trying to work towards the same goal. Everybody- no need for flame wars in this part of the Warmonger forum. thanks.
jer732 wrote:Birdoff makes me want to rage quit life
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Re: V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Larro » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:17 am

Border Reiver wrote:Larry, I realize that the previous statement was out of line, but yours went that far out of line and took a giant step further.


Kinda hard to fault the guy who retaliates when provoked, don't you think?

Here's the bottom line - his suggestions was awful. His logic for it, i.e. using fluff to create rules, was even worse. It's bad enough he's been on board with every other suggestions proposed recently, including thinking Obsidian Guard are actually good/more-than-viable in their present incarnation - but then he goes a step forward and suggests making dispel scrolls available ONLY to a Lord-level character is somehow a good idea and one that will lead to more diverse/interesting game mechanics, when quite clearly all it will do is make HP's MORE common as a result.

I will stand by the fact that every army has a Hero-level character who can take Dispel Scrolls, and CDs should be no different. Not one-use Enchanted Dispel Scroll wannabe bullshit items that AREN'T dispel scrolls and actually require me to roll dice. Not MR-bonuses. Dispel Scrolls. 25 pts, spell = gone, the end. Advocating change for the sake of change while simultaneously being to the detriment of the list and all CD players moving forward is pure folly and I won't get behind it.

- Larry
"Just being born means you've lost to Larro. Or haven't you gotten the memo yet?" - Nidal

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Re: V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Hashuts Scion » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:15 am

Larro wrote:
Border Reiver wrote:Larry, I realize that the previous statement was out of line, but yours went that far out of line and took a giant step further.


Here's the bottom line - his suggestions was awful. His logic for it, i.e. using fluff to create rules, was even worse.

But, suggestions are suggestions. What you may like, or not like, may not be important. What is important is getting CDs a viable, challenging, fun to play list that is, as originally state, mid to lower tier in power.

I will stand by the fact that every army has a Hero-level character who can take Dispel Scrolls, and CDs should be no different. Not one-use Enchanted Dispel Scroll wannabe bullshit items that AREN'T dispel scrolls and actually require me to roll dice. Not MR-bonuses. Dispel Scrolls. 25 pts, spell = gone, the end. Advocating change for the sake of change while simultaneously being to the detriment of the list and all CD players moving forward is pure folly and I won't get behind it.

- Larry


It's wonderful that you are a 4 time GT winner and overall top 10 finisher. I have never been to a GT, but I am not a 13 year old, nor a comic book whatever. BUT, I am a player and have been for over 30 years. Your comments, when backed by facts (every army having this, your experience) speak louder than words, especially when coming down on someone else. Sometimes I think you push your point too far with words. It makes your argument WEAKER, not stronger, when I cannot get past your tone or choice of words.

Look, I am not complaining. Infighting is going to get us nowhere.

PROPOSAL: (for those of us in the dark). Tell us: What armies have consistently won in GTs? What armies consistently lose? WHY have they done so? If CDs are to be mid-tier, then should we consistently win versus those armies?

I have found the majority of proposals here interesting and we have come down to just a few units and their costs. What is important now is understanding our goal and how these last couple of subjects should fit in. The idea of the bound item/TK like magic system was first completely hated and now most seem to like it. Playtesting has helped.

So, what comments/proposals are based upon concrete facts and which are based upon preferences?
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Re: V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Aves » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:28 pm

Larro, i am afraid u are rather anonymous on this forum, i mean i am princess Vanesa and i can buy whole Gw but do i brag about it.
Also you seem to be very competitive, and competitive players are not the kind i like, because they do whatever it takes to win and often forget about sportsmanship.

Nevertheless i am going too far away from the subject, my point is to half marketing half game design.
CD HAVE to be unique, totaly absolutely one of a kind. For now V3 is unique, as i spoke with game designers on UK games day, every army has to fill in different slot, if armies are too similiar then its no good, (d u remeber Squats, they were too Space Marines).

CDs have to be different than normal dwarfs, it cant be just weird combo of dwarf, goblins and chaos.

Therefore not having dispell scrolls could be viable, with 4 basic dices, 1 more per deamonsmith could be an option. And cheap magic resistance on important units. In my oppinion difficulty with DS is thats infact a hybrid character, mage/melee. Even more troublesome since it can cast good buff on himself.
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Re: V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Larro » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:16 pm

Again with this fluff explanation for no dispel scrolls. Give it a rest. Chaos Dwarfs are so different from normal Dwarfs, so they don't get dispel scrolls? Why is it every other race in the game gets access to them, as they're part of the COMMON MAGIC ITEM list? I guess they're only common for everyone BUT Chaos Dwarfs? :roll:

Except that's the wrong reason. The reason is because it's for game balance. Everyone has the option of paying points for adequate magic defense, and taking the chance that it might be OTT and wasted. That's the price you pay. This is a list being built for acceptance in the Indy GT tournament scene, and hopefully one day, to be featured in White Dwarf like Gnoblars have been. I'll say it again - for acceptance in the Indy GT tournament scene. Tournaments. Competitive players. Conversion opportunities. Nicely painted armies. Things of this nature. So, it isn't enough to just throw an idea out here and expect fluff to be enough to justify it. If GW was doing this list, scrolls would be accessible to Hero-level characters, end of story. Prohibiting CDs from having access to Scrolls on anyone other than the HP is simply going to pigeon-hole CD players in tournaments to take the HP, since you can't perform consistently vs. the top armies without sufficient magic defense.

As for Demonsmiths generating dispel dice, Kevin already shot that idea down earlier in this thread. At the moment, 4 dice, with +2 dispel available if you take the priest, and the +1 dispel item, seems to be fine, as long as Smiths can take Scrolls. This way you can go 4 and some scrolls, 5 and some scrolls, or 6 or even 7, and some scrolls, or no scrolls at all - just like every other army. There is no harm in giving us the option.

- Larry
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"Larry was right. I know he never gets tired of hearing that." - Canterman
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Re: V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Dedwrekka » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:19 pm

Larro wrote:Again with this fluff explanation for no dispel scrolls. Give it a rest. Chaos Dwarfs are so different from normal Dwarfs, so they don't get dispel scrolls? Why is it every other race in the game gets access to them, as they're part of the COMMON MAGIC ITEM list? I guess they're only common for everyone BUT Chaos Dwarfs? :roll:

Except that's the wrong reason. The reason is because it's for game balance. Everyone has the option of paying points for adequate magic defense, and taking the chance that it might be OTT and wasted. That's the price you pay. This is a list being built for acceptance in the Indy GT tournament scene, and hopefully one day, to be featured in White Dwarf like Gnoblars have been. I'll say it again - for acceptance in the Indy GT tournament scene. Tournaments. Competitive players. Conversion opportunities. Nicely painted armies. Things of this nature. So, it isn't enough to just throw an idea out here and expect fluff to be enough to justify it. If GW was doing this list, scrolls would be accessible to Hero-level characters, end of story. Prohibiting CDs from having access to Scrolls on anyone other than the HP is simply going to pigeon-hole CD players in tournaments to take the HP, since you can't perform consistently vs. the top armies without sufficient magic defense.

As for Demonsmiths generating dispel dice, Kevin already shot that idea down earlier in this thread. At the moment, 4 dice, with +2 dispel available if you take the priest, and the +1 dispel item, seems to be fine, as long as Smiths can take Scrolls. This way you can go 4 and some scrolls, 5 and some scrolls, or 6 or even 7, and some scrolls, or no scrolls at all - just like every other army. There is no harm in giving us the option.

- Larry

I'd point out that Kevin used fluff equally with game mechanics to explain his reasoning behind the decision:
KevinC wrote:
Question on their Weapons. They come with a Hand Weapon and a Daemon Weapon. If they Daemon Weapon is a Magic Weapon, why have the hand weapon?


------------Well, the rulebook states all models have a hand weapon, I guess it is not needed to state it, especially if it causes confusion.

As the Daemonsmiths being magic users, I'd prefer to stay away from that, for one it does not go with the fluff and I want their power to come from the weapon itself - they are not wizards. Chaos Dwarfs are another type of Dwarf army and I like giving them 4 dispel dice. Further more it also correlates well when doing a Hobgoblin army, since you can't get any wizards in that army it gives them a decent magic defense. Further more the Arcana items for Chaos Dwarfs are really good, this is intentional because you can only pick one, at most, in a 2,000 point game.

Don't worry about the dispel dice.

Kevin out
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Re: V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Larro » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:48 pm

1 - I don't recall supporting Kevin and his fluff explanations either, so I'm not sure how relevant this is in the present discussion.

2 - I don't know if it's smart to criticize the guy running the project, but to each his own.

- Larry
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Re: V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Dedwrekka » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:53 pm

Larro wrote:1 - I don't recall supporting Kevin and his fluff explanations either, so I'm not sure how relevant this is in the present discussion.

2 - I don't know if it's smart to criticize the guy running the project, but to each his own.

- Larry

1- You used his comment about generating Dispel Dice as a retort to someone else suggesting it, but only after making comments about how you shouldn't use fluff at all as the reasoning behind anything to do with the list.
Somehow trying to back up the ruling that included fluff explanations by mentioning it yourself, while saying that you shouldn't use fluff explanations for suggestions or ideas. All the while it's still obvious that the people writing the list are indeed looking at things that make sense in the fluff as well as from gaming aspects.

2- There's nothing the least bit insulting in anything I said in that sentence. Like you I also reserve the right to disagree with other people, but I don't insult them.
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