V3 Daemonsmith comments here!

[Larro]

1- You used his comment about generating Dispel Dice as a retort to someone else suggesting it, but only after making comments about how you shouldn't use fluff at all as the reasoning behind anything to do with the list.
Somehow trying to back up the ruling that included fluff explanations by mentioning it yourself, while saying that you shouldn't use fluff explanations for suggestions or ideas. All the while it's still obvious that the people writing the list are indeed looking at things that make sense in the fluff as well as from gaming aspects.

My point is that it's irrelevant if Kevin uses fluff justifications because I'm not Kevin, and I've never come out and supported his fluff explanations either. I base my suggestions on point costs and unit comparisons from actual GW books, and I'm sure they're doing the same thing. He just used fluff to justify the 4-dispel dice rule for the army, but if you look deeper, you'll see that this was done because Demonsmiths do not generate dispel dice, and his intention was so that you could field a list with magic defense without having to take mages to get it. There is a big difference in between implementing an army-wide special rule and trying to create a one-off situation where ONLY Chaos Dwarfs lose out on access to dispel scrolls. At the end of the day, guess what? Gameplay > Fluff, and I've told Kevin the same thing.

2- There's nothing the least bit insulting in anything I said in that sentence. Like you I also reserve the right to disagree with other people, but I don't insult them.

If you choose not to look past the sporadic insults (which weren't even directed at you) to the substance of the posts and the legitimacy of what I'm saying, than it's your loss, not mine. The insight is there, and being willfully naive does you no good.

Now, someone, anyone, give me a good reason as to why Dispel Scrolls are so game-breaking that CDs shouldn't be able to field them on Heroes, when even DEMON LEGION HEROES and VAMPIRE HEROES and DWARVEN HEROES can get them, and we can talk. I think you'll be hard-pressed to fight the precedent of 100% of all armies having Hero-level access to the Common Magic Item List, arcane items included.

- Larry

[KevinC]

Guys, there is no reason to argue about this, you're actually both right, you're both just looking at it in different terms.

Larry is right in the fact that game balance should not be based on non-game mechanic material.

Dedwrekka is also right that it does not make sense if game rules disregard or contradict the background or game world.

As a games designer I need to find a solution that appeases both of these issues. As Border Reiver suggested, it would be a good idea to have the Fire Stones work like a dispel scroll, which is a fine solution.

In fact, you guys can start playing with this:

Fire Stones of Uzkul 25 pts (Talisman item)
Daemonsmiths Only. One Use Only.
Fire stones are common magical rocks of debris; leftovers of greater enterprises found in the massive foundries and workshops of the Chaos Dwarfs. When broken, the stones cause an anti-magical anomaly that temporarily pushes back the winds of magic.
Fires Stones may be used once per game and work in the exact same manner as a Dispel Scroll, as described in the Warhammer rulebook. A Chaos Dwarf player may include multiples of this item in his/her army, and a model may carry multiple Fire Stones.

[Larro]

Ace.

- Larry

[Renufus]

Awesome, this will be a great help.

[Hashuts Scion]

So, let me see if I get this.

We start with 4 DD.
We can get more DD naturally only if we take a HP (2 per HP).
We have the Helm of Azgorh, an enchanted item which anyone can use, whichs gives 1 DD/phase.
We have the Hexacon of Hashut, again anyone, which gives us 6d6 of dispel capacity vs one spell in lieu of our regular roll to dispel.
Finally, we have the Firestones of Uzkul which are dispel scrolls that only Daemonsmiths can use.

For casting purposes, we have a HP which can cast 2/round at Power Level 7.
We have Daemonsmiths which, as long as they have their weapon, can cast 1 at Power level 5.
We have Daemon Bane, an arcane item only HP can use, wiht bound level 4.
The Bull Horn, anyone, bound lvl 3.
Stone Totem Banner, bound lvl 3.

So, maxing out magic in a 2000 pt army, we take a HP and 3 DS. This gives us 4+2+Helm = 7 DD and now can have up to 6 Firestones (ie dispel scrolls). We have 2 PD, which are not used except to help us dispel during our turns any RiP spells, or don't we generate any? We have 5 casting (3 at lvl 5, 2 at lvl 7, plus 3 bound in items).

Seems like we won't be as vulnerable to magic heavy armies. It also bumps up our magic potential in armies in battles of less than 2000 as DS can make a decent general.

An all hob army is still limited to only 4 DD and the Hexacon. (They cannot take a DS as his Ldr is a 9 automatically making him the general over the hob lord, ldr 8.)

[Aves]

Fire Stones of Uzkul 25 pts (Talisman item)
Daemonsmiths Only. One Use Only.
Fire stones are common magical rocks of debris; leftovers of greater enterprises found in the massive foundries and workshops of the Chaos Dwarfs. When broken, the stones cause an anti-magical anomaly that temporarily pushes back the winds of magic.
Fires Stones may be used once per game and work in the exact same manner as a Dispel Scroll, as described in the Warhammer rulebook. A Chaos Dwarf player may include multiples of this item in his/her army, and a model may carry multiple Fire Stones.

kool idea.

[Border Reiver]

And now to modify my list.

[DarkbloodSkullpulper]

Larry, I realize that the previous statement was out of line, but yours went that far out of line and took a giant step further.

Rather than use the standard dispel scroll, do what the dwarfs do - and make the firestone of Uzkul a one shot dispel item available to Daemonsmiths only and move it to the enchanted item list and get rid of the ward save effect. 25 pts value. Similar to the Dwarf rune of Spell Breaking.

This is actually close to what I did with the Hexacon in a test game. I took two of them. It looks so much like a dispel scroll that I assumed it could be duplicated across multiple heroes in the Enchanted Item slot. Ta da. No need to call daemonsmiths wizards or allow them access to the arcane section. Heck, it'll even let Hobo "heroes' throw out some magic D.

[DarkbloodSkullpulper]

I will stand by the fact that every army has a Hero-level character who can take Dispel Scrolls, and CDs should be no different. Not one-use Enchanted Dispel Scroll wannabe bullshit items that AREN'T dispel scrolls and actually require me to roll dice. Not MR-bonuses. Dispel Scrolls. 25 pts, spell = gone, the end. Advocating change for the sake of change while simultaneously being to the detriment of the list and all CD players moving forward is pure folly and I won't get behind it.

- Larry

The Hexacon doesn't give an automiscast on double 1's, so why they hate? Average roll on a Hexacon = 21, and with that many dice, there shouldn't be significant deviation. Can you remember the last time someone rolled a 22 to cast and didn't have irresistable force?

[Matt]

The Hexacon doesn't give an automiscast on double 1's, so why they hate? Average roll on a Hexacon = 21, and with that many dice, there shouldn't be significant deviation. Can you remember the last time someone rolled a 22 to cast and didn't have irresistable force?

Yes, I can remember. It happened to my orcs and goblins on Sunday.
I ate a power stone and rolled 6, 6, 5, 3, 1, 1.
Apparently, Mork wanted the shaman. I'm sure if his head didn't explode, that goblin great shaman would have pulled it off with his 2nd power stone.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't chaos dwarves show up with 7 dispel dice, a +1 to dispel, and 6 dispel stones?
That seems like too many options to me.


-Matt