v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

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v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Hashuts Scion » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:10 pm

Battle Report 2000 pts Hobgoblin vs 2000 Tomb King

Hobgoblin Army
Gorduz Backstabber
BC Hero, Death Mace, Chaos Armor, Shield
Hob Overseer, Blades of Backstabbing, bow, lt armor, shield
Hob Overseer, Biting Blade, Wolf, Lt. Armor

20 Hobs, bow, FC
14 Hob Wolfrider, Spear, LA, Shield, FC
4 Hob Bolt Throwers
9 BCs Chaos Armor, shield, FC
20 CDs chaos armor, eruption gun
20 Sneaky Gits, FC
3 Infernal Golems with eruption gun

TK Army
TK, TP, LP (casket), LP
2 swarms in front of casket
10 skeletons with bow
15 skeletons with shield, LA, spear
15 Tomb Guard
1 Screaming Skull

Turn 1 was essentially ineffective for both sides as he maneuvered, missed with catapult, and casket was dispelled.

Turn 2
Hit by catapult on wolves, panics, and general turns tail 5
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:44 pm

thanks! glad to know the golems are doing well in test games. Maybe I missed it someplace, but why did the CDs not get into the action? were they set up in the middle of the board?
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Hashuts Scion » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:25 pm

Mostly my fault, I fogot how fast those %$#% chariots are with magic. I placed the CDs left center, opposite his chariots and he promptly changed flanks. My units got in the way of each other, so they just didn't make it over there in time.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby KevinC » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:06 pm

Hashuts scion,

Thanks for the report, did you have fun playing the list?

Did Gorduz killing blow the prince?

Thanks,

Kevin out
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Hashuts Scion » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:32 pm

Kevin,

Yes, I did have fun with the list. I really thought having only 4 DD would be horrendous, but because the TK spells are less damaging than others, letting some through wasn't as bad as I feared. Also, T4 helps. Yes, Gorduz killing blow is what did the Prince in.

I do feel the hobs are still priced a little high. Animosity did play some role here, but I expected it. When its gobbos, I have plenty of them being so cheap. Because I took some other units that cost a bit, it didn't leave me too many points to spend on hobs.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby KevinC » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:51 pm

I realize many players are going to feel that Hobs are too expensive, I disagree. I happen to be in the minority in that I believe 3-point Goblins are balanced as well.

The way I see it anyway, is that Hobgoblins are more comparable to Humans than Goblins anyway. For 5 points an Empire player can get a Human with light armour and spear (or Halberd), for 5 points Chaos Dwarf players can get a Hobgoblin with light armour and shield. Which is probably overall more effective - the Hobgoblin with a 4+ save in combat, I'd bet. Hobgoblins are really humans with one point less LD, but they can have an LD 10 general, and they can get the banner of Slavery to reroll psy - which is huge.

I know Empire has detachments and Hobs have animosity. But detachment is an overall army rule, and Animosity can be really good when you roll a 6.

Don't expect Hobbos to change....

Kevin out
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Renufus » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:26 am

KevinC wrote:I realize many players are going to feel that Hobs are too expensive, I disagree. I happen to be in the minority in that I believe 3-point Goblins are balanced as well.

The way I see it anyway, is that Hobgoblins are more comparable to Humans than Goblins anyway. For 5 points an Empire player can get a Human with light armour and spear (or Halberd), for 5 points Chaos Dwarf players can get a Hobgoblin with light armour and shield. Which is probably overall more effective - the Hobgoblin with a 4+ save in combat, I'd bet. Hobgoblins are really humans with one point less LD, but they can have an LD 10 general, and they can get the banner of Slavery to reroll psy - which is huge.

I know Empire has detachments and Hobs have animosity. But detachment is an overall army rule, and Animosity can be really good when you roll a 6.

Don't expect Hobbos to change....

Kevin out


Sorry, Kevin, but you're wrong here.

I've never seen anyone use Spearmen or Halberds over Swordsmen, ever, unless they were constrained by which models they own... Because Spearmen and Halberds are garbage. HW+Sh is the only way cheap infantry work. Period. Without it they're just free points for your opponent. Therefore, it makes more sense to compare Hobgoblins to the 6pt Swordsmen who have I4, WS4, Ld7, no animosity, and detachments. That makes it much harder to justify hobgoblins at 5 points if you really insist on balancing around points costs in other books (which, as I've pointed out before, is a fallacy).

As to your point about animosity... I think you're really reaching here. I have never, not once, ever, in my entire 10 years of gaming, had animosity be 'really good.' Because it's not. It's a disadvantage that justifies greenskins being cheaper than normal troops. The only situation in which you can say it's really good (and even this is a stretch) is when you play O&G and can call the Waagh to give your Orc units a free D6" move, because you can (somewhat) plan on it ahead of time. Even then, I've had units of Boar Boyz and Wolf Riders literally vaporize themselves from rolling a 1 during a Waagh so it ends up balancing out. More often, rolling a 6 usually means my archers are moving forward giving them a -1 to hit or my Wolf Riders decided to frontally charge that unit that reformed to face them last turn or some stupid unit just moved up to block a charge I was planning. With Chaos Dwarfs it's even worse because your Sneaky Gits can careen themselves forward into that terrain they're hiding behind and then it takes them 3 or more turns of movement just to get out. Animosity sucks.

I respect your right to an opinion and your right to disagree with me, but you're totally backwards on this one. There is no way you can convincingly pass off to me or anyone else with years of gaming experience that Animosity is advantageous or even some kind of self-balancing factor. It's a rule designed to make whatever unit it's tacked onto systematically weaker than normal, end of story. Unpredictability kills, even if it means there's a one in a hundred chance it might actually benefit you when you need it to.

As a side note, I wish people would stop using Ld10 as an argument. It's one character with a one point Ld advantage over the majority of other lords, and you pay through the nose for it in the cost of the character. Ld10 greenskins in Chaos Dwarf armies have been around forever and there's absolutely no reason that they mysteriously need to start being taxed for it now.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby KevinC » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:04 pm

renufus and all,

I completely agree swordmens are better than halberds and spears. And I'm not simply basing the cost of Hobgoblins on comparison to other armies, but how they function within the Chaos Dwarf list as well.

I'm surprised that so many players don't think that +1 Leadership is a big deal. It is a big deal; +1 Leadership is the difference between winning and losing games. Hobgoblins can get LD 10 and reroll psychology test, which is a really nasty combo, and even at 4 points they are a lot cheaper than Chaos Dwarf Warriors. If Hobgoblins were any cheaper they would simply be too good, and I want to avoid this. In 6th edition when Goblins were a mere two points with shields, most people did not field Orcs because Goblins were so much better because of their cost.

If I made Hobgoblins 3 points as they are in V3, they would be no-brianer choices. They would really stand out as a great choice - basically getting Humans with light armour for 3 points in an army of 8-point movement 3 troops. Not to mention Hobgoblins don't panic other units. Such subtle rules (LD 10, not causing panic, reroll psy, etc) are huge - they ARE the difference of winning and losing and I now for a fact that many players do not appreciate such advantages or notice them. For myself, I've played Goblins armies since the late '80s and so I know more than most (if I may be so bold) that every little point of LD or rule that affects LD makes a big difference.

But even so, if you want the cheap 3-point slave, I'm not telling you no, I'm giving it to you it another option (rabble). So you are free to pick and choose what you'd like then. Just like in the O&G list you can pick Night Goblins over Goblins or vice versa if you prefer or both.

I don't see this as a big issue at all, and I intend to run an-all Hobgoblin army myself. In my eyes making Hobgobs 3 pts is like getting your cake and eating it too. If one thinks they are too expensive they have other options...

Regarding Animosity, I agree it is a disadvantage; however 7th edition Animosity (both for CD and O&G) is 100% better than it ever was. You never had a 1 in 6 chance every turn to gain extra movement, and that can really be useful.

Cheers,

Kevin out
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Renufus » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:45 am

KevinC wrote:renufus and all,

I completely agree swordmens are better than halberds and spears. And I'm not simply basing the cost of Hobgoblins on comparison to other armies, but how they function within the Chaos Dwarf list as well.

I'm surprised that so many players don't think that +1 Leadership is a big deal. It is a big deal; +1 Leadership is the difference between winning and losing games. Hobgoblins can get LD 10 and reroll psychology test, which is a really nasty combo, and even at 4 points they are a lot cheaper than Chaos Dwarf Warriors. If Hobgoblins were any cheaper they would simply be too good, and I want to avoid this.


Then make them 4 points with LA+Sh mandatory, that's what I would do. Taxing the unit because of combos that not everyone will take is not good strategy. Charge more for the Ld10 character or the banner if you have to, but if you don't have these things in your army you're just charging players extra points for nothing.

If I made Hobgoblins 3 points as they are in V3, they would be no-brianer choices. They would really stand out as a great choice - basically getting Humans with light armour for 3 points in an army of 8-point movement 3 troops. Not to mention Hobgoblins don't panic other units. Such subtle rules (LD 10, not causing panic, reroll psy, etc) are huge - they ARE the difference of winning and losing and I now for a fact that many players do not appreciate such advantages or notice them. For myself, I've played Goblins armies since the late '80s and so I know more than most (if I may be so bold) that every little point of LD or rule that affects LD makes a big difference.


Again, 4pts with LA+Sh is not unreasonable. I'm not proposing you drop their cost because I want to weasle another 25pts worth of other stuff into my army. I think I'll live without that one extra dispel scroll or bull centaur. I'm proposing you drop their cost because Rabble are the clear winner in this race and always will be unless something changes. Where Rabble are supposed to be the throwaway speedbump unit and Hobgoblins the light combat infantry, Rabble can fulfill either role for no appreciable drawback. I think I'm being quite reasonable with my logic here - removing LA from Rabble would discourage their use as mainline infantry, and making a large unit of Hobgoblins with command cheap and durable enough to throw into a combat and add a heap of CR would give them a strategic purpose in the list. They've still got a piss-poor statline and aside from a 4+ save and large amount of static res have absolutely nothing going for them compared to any other serious infantry unit.

But even so, if you want the cheap 3-point slave, I'm not telling you no, I'm giving it to you it another option (rabble). So you are free to pick and choose what you'd like then. Just like in the O&G list you can pick Night Goblins over Goblins or vice versa if you prefer or both.


That's exactly the crux of the problem I'm trying to get across here. I don't want to see another unit like common Goblins that only ever shows up in themed armies, I want a unit that I have to make a conscious decision about whether I want to take or not. In the end it won't really make a difference to me if you decide to keep Hobgoblins where they are, I and many others simply won't use them unless I decide to make an all-Hobgoblin army. Is that really what you want this unit to amount to though? In the end isn't it better for everyone if we have a choice to make instead of a no-brainer option and a distant second place?

I don't see this as a big issue at all, and I intend to run an-all Hobgoblin army myself. In my eyes making Hobgobs 3 pts is like getting your cake and eating it too. If one thinks they are too expensive they have other options...

Regarding Animosity, I agree it is a disadvantage; however 7th edition Animosity (both for CD and O&G) is 100% better than it ever was. You never had a 1 in 6 chance every turn to gain extra movement, and that can really be useful.


Again, rolling a 6 can be useful in a very specialized set of circumstances. It can also just as easily be very bad. I certainly never move my O&G units expecting to roll a 6 for animosity next turn, so when it happens, under most circumstances it's nothing more than an afterthought that rarely ever has an effect on the outcome of the game. On the other hand, I can't tell you how many games I've lost because some unit decided to squabble at exactly the wrong time. It's certainly not a self-balancing rule by any means and should be taken strongly into consideration when determining the price of a unit that has it.

One last thing, please, please reconsider your stance on Hobgoblin archers. They really are trash and need desperately to be their own 10+ unit.
Last edited by Renufus on Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby elrodogg » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:08 am

+1

4pt LA+Sh Hoggobbos and 10+ archers (6pts is fine)
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