v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby WickerNipple » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:50 pm

Heh. I didn't suggest it was abusive. They're hobgoblins, they're not going to break the game. :lol:

Any 50pt unit is very good for the points - even if they do nothing else but hold table quarters and add deployment drops. Being able to shoot is just an added but not insignificant bonus: each unit should average killing a light cavalry model every turn. Even troops that truly suck can make a big impact on the right opponent.

I'm surprised you have trouble deploying them - units of 10 are only 8" long. Angled and stuck in the corner they don't really take up much space, especially not for a dwarf army that rarely uses more than half a table. I'm also surprised you don't see them supporting the rest of the army, though we may just use the word support differently. They're definitely not going to help the CDs win combat or anything - but they do distract, project force, take up space, force light cav to reconsider their positioning, blah blah blah. Everything you normally use archers for...

And any danger they actually get in just helps you. Anything your opponent throws at them will cost more than they do - you should be thrilled their flyers and other fast things are taking themselves out of the game to mess with hobgoblins rather than eat warmachines or character hunt. It really doesn't make a bit of difference how well archers fight -- except the truly crappy ones are even cheaper. (Making them better, natch. It's all S3, afterall. Is BS4 and Ld8 worth over twice their cost for the same arrow?)

So: My issue has nothing to do with them breaking games, but whether you want cheap hobs with bows to be an army staple. Given the current testing rules for Hobgoblins, I'd never take a ranked unit of 20 w/ LA&S instead of the proposed 2x10 w/ Bows, for example.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby elrodogg » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:57 pm

+1 for no 10 strong archers, +1 for 4pt la/sh 20+ warriors with normal banners
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Guy In Suit » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:04 pm

+1 for Ronen's +1's
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Larro » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:24 pm

The rub lies in the fact that no one will take units of 20 Bows. No one is doing it now.

The problem is that Kevin shot down any chance of Hobgobbos going down in pts to be equal to Goblins, spouting something moronic about competitiveness being some fool-hardy idea.

Hobgobbo with LA/Sh should be 4 pts., like a Goblin. Min Size 20.

Hobgobbo with Bow and LA should be 5 pts., no option for shield, and should be min. size 10.

50 vs. 80 is more of a debate, especially when the unit of 20 has a 4+ Save and can lend static res in the way Gobbos do for O&G armies. I'd certainly take a unit of ranked Hobgobbos at that price, and would not opt entirely for Bows.

Also, as was said by myself and others earlier, O&G get the exact same thing, with the exact same LD9 and BSB, only their unit is supposedly OK and the CD Hobgobbos are supposedly broken and/or underpriced at 4 pts. Sorry but I'm not buying the brand of crazy on this one.

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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby WickerNipple » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:46 pm

I'm with you on the 4pt Hobos, 5 w/ Bow. I just don't see the need for the list to have more access to spammable 50pt units.

If you want to treat them like gobbos, treat em like gobbos - they don't get to cut their units in half.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:11 pm

WickerNipple wrote:I'm with you on the 4pt Hobos, 5 w/ Bow. I just don't see the need for the list to have more access to spammable 50pt units.

If you want to treat them like gobbos, treat em like gobbos - they don't get to cut their units in half.


A night goblin with a bow is also almost half the cost of a hobgoblin with a bow. The unit itself costs almost exactly the same but it gets twice as many models. What is so hard to understand about this?

Go ahead and be paranoid and pretend like an unarmored 10 man archer unit with T3 and animosity is the most broken unit you can imagine. After all, those ever so cheezy 10 man Orc Arrer Boyz are clearly so very integral to the success of that powergamers' wet dream known as O&G. (Protip: Orc Arrer Boyz are far and away better than Hobgoblin Archers and still nobody wants to use them)

If 5 point 10+ Hobgoblin Archers were even half as abusive as you and others claim they are, we'd have already seen them running wild in the 8 or 9 years the Ravening Hordes list has had them. Seriously, I wonder if some of you even play Warhammer or are just here to parade the cause of units that nobody in their right mind will want to use.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby WickerNipple » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:28 pm

Have you been taking notes from Larry on winning friends and influencing people?
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Guy In Suit » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:54 pm

WickerNipple wrote:Have you been taking notes from Larry on winning friends and influencing people?


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby KevinC » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:54 pm

A night goblin with a bow is also almost half the cost of a hobgoblin with a bow.


-------------Right and for +2 points, the Hobgoblin gets +1 WS, +1 LD, Light Amour and his bow has a range of 24" compared to the Night Goblin's 16". On top of this you could spend a further point to give the Hobgobs shields, and so the unit becomes a good close combat unit with a 4+ save and they can make 24" ranged attacks.


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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Renufus » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:01 pm

WickerNipple wrote:Have you been taking notes from Larry on winning friends and influencing people?


I'm beginning to sympathize with him a little bit. I'm getting extremely strung out spending all this time and effort playtesting this list just to be met with resistance at every suggestion because God forbid we have an army that can actually compete at all levels with other armies.

Honestly, I try to back up all of my suggestions with clearly worded, well thought out evidence and plenty of actual gaming experience and all I see in return is weak theoryhammer that sometimes doesn't even have anything to do with the facts being discussed. What possible reason is there to take a 20+ unit of 5 point archers with a 6+ save, animosity, and a rotten bunch of stats when for the last 8 or 9 years they have come in units of 10 for the exact same price and no balance issues whatsoever? Please, enlighten me. Apparently I'm missing something here that you're all seeing, some magical hidden potential that lies within the unit when no other army book in the entire game has to deal with their only archer unit coming in huge, unwieldy blocks that will get slaughtered like pigs the second they hit combat.
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