v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby KevinC » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:28 pm

Renufus,

First off, I appreciate all your feedback. But please don't be offended by disagreement. What would you have me do listen to every single suggestion from everyone and do my best to please everyone with every single issue? I can't and won't do that. I'm considering and reading the feedback. One thing I can tell you for sure when the book is final, there will be lots of people not happy with it, there will be lots of people that don't like certain units, that is simply the way of things. Hopefully more people will like the book than not.

At the end of the day, people play Warhammer completely different. A great unit in one person's eyes is crap in the eye's of another. Which is exactly why Warhammer forums across the web are riddled with arguements about what is better and what is not. Don't take any of this personally.

only archer unit coming in huge, unwieldy blocks that will get slaughtered like pigs the second they hit combat.


---------------The main 'archer unit' is Annihilators, this is Dwarfs of Chaos after all not a Hobgoblin army book.

Thanks,

Kevin out
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Larro » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:55 pm

I'm beginning to sympathize with him a little bit. I'm getting extremely strung out spending all this time and effort playtesting this list just to be met with resistance at every suggestion because God forbid we have an army that can actually compete at all levels with other armies.


That's the fundamental problem - you, me and others want this book which is being designed for tournament play, and for tournament players, to not be total uncompetitive shit, whereas the powers that be, unfortunately, feel the need to do whatever they please and ignore 90% of all constructive feedback, making changes only to the most grossly overpriced/underpowered, and still leaving scores of underpowered and overpriced BS inside the list.

Think about it. We cried for weeks before any changes were made to the Earthshaker, and cried even more before it regained even ANY of its former teeth.

Hobgoblins? Overpriced, end of story.

Golems? Overpriced AND Underpowered.

Demoneater? Too fragile and overpriced as it stands now. There's no reason it can't go down 20 pts., OR gain a 4th wound like every other chariot in the world.

Chaos Dwarf Warriors with CHAOS ARMOR??? 13 pts. An IRONBREAKER is 13 pts., and gets WS5, S4, and the same 2+ Save. Are we ever given an explanation as to why? No. Not even one. It's just ignored, and one can speculate that it's because there's nothing to be said to defense this comparison.

Obsidian Guard pale in comparison for the points to ANYTHING elite in the Dwarf book. They're utter overpriced junk. 15 pts. totally kitted out, and 14 otherwise, for what? A unit that NEEDS ranks to be effective since it has only 1 attack base, and cannot afford ranks because it's prohibitively expensive? No thanks. An Ironbreaker is 13. A Hammerer is 12, 13 with a Shield. Can anyone honestly argue that Obsidian Guard are BETTER than either unit, at 14 base, and 15 with shield? Or, forget better. How about arguing that these guys are even AS GOOD? I dare say you'd be hard-pressed IF you were being honest, to say Obsidian Guard are as good or better than either unit.

You want simple fixes from a pretty reasonable standpoint?
- Chaos Dwarfs w/ Chaos Armor become 12 pts., meaning +3 pts. for Chaos Armor.
- Obsidian Guard go down to 13 with Shield, and can exchange their shield for GW.
- Golems get a 3+ Save and go down to 60 pts., OR stay with their 4+ Save and go down to 50 or 55 pts.
- Magic Phase reverts to DICE, and keeps GOOD Lores of magic, as opposed to proposed neutered Lore of Hashut.
- Demoneaters +1 wound, or else 130 pts.

Anyone who thinks I'm wrong, so be it, but please, if you're going to disagree, at least give SOME semblance of rational basis for disagreeing here.

- Larry
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby KevinC » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:31 pm

You want simple fixes from a pretty reasonable standpoint?
- Chaos Dwarfs w/ Chaos Armor become 12 pts., meaning +3 pts. for Chaos Armor.
- Obsidian Guard go down to 13 with Shield, and can exchange their shield for GW.
- Golems get a 3+ Save and go down to 60 pts., OR stay with their 4+ Save and go down to 50 or 55 pts.
- Magic Phase reverts to DICE, and keeps GOOD Lores of magic, as opposed to proposed neutered Lore of Hashut.
- Demoneaters +1 wound, or else 130 pts.


----------Larry I understand that these are changes you want, however what exactly do you mean by 'simple fix', these units don't work as they are in V3? You can't make an effective CD army list using the current V3 list?
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:36 pm

forgive me if I missed something, but aren't we definitely making hobbo archers 10+?
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Hashuts Scion » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:43 pm

First of all, let's look at this objectively. The disclaimer on page 2 of the current version 3 rules states, "IMPORTANT: At this point, we are primarily looking for feedback based on ACTUAL GAMES PLAYED. Please get in a few games before posting feedback".

I've noticed 27 battle reports in how many postings? Now I know there are games being played and not being reported, but to simply state, this unit should be this because you think it is too high cost/too low on Strength, or T, or W, or whatever, I think are missing the boat.

To prove my point, look at the basic warrior from the Empire sword, Dwarf, HE spear, DE, CD
Empire: 6 pts for WS 4, Ldr 7, LA, shield
Dwarf: 8 pts for WS 4, T4, Ldr 9, HA (shield +1)
HE: 9 pts for Ws 4, Ldr 8, Strike First, reroll Psychology, fight in extra rank
DE: 6 pts for WS 4, Ldr 8, LA, (shield +1), hate all
CD: 8 pts for WS 4, T4, Ldr 9, HA, (shield +1). CA for +3.

I would love for someone to tell me how an Empire Swordsman equals a DE spearman. They both cost 6 points. Yet, what I don't hear is how OTT the DE army is compared to the Empire. The army consists of more than 1 unit. It is how they all fit together that determines how well the army plays.
The Juggernaut (needs a name change to avoid confusion with the Juggernaut of Khorne) is considered by at least two players in my area simply because of its unit strength, but since I haven't played with it yet, I am not going to agree or disagree with them. Until I have seen how it performs in battle, I won't know if it is worth the 330 points. That is what I can spend on an entire unit of 20 CDs.

What I will say, is using flammatory language to try to sway me is the wrong way to go. I may not be a top ten finalist, I may not have won any tournaments. But. I do have two books published, and numerous magazine articles. Both of which I got payed for. So, please, before you try to insult me, consider who your audience is before flaming off.

As far as Obsidian Guard being compatable with either the Hammerer or Ironbreaker units. Larry is correct in his point totals. But for those measly 1-2 points, you get Killing Blow and Cause Fear. You also get a GW. Yes, that makes a unit of 20 of these brutes 330 points, but considering that a unit of Iron Breakers will cost you 290 for 20, that is 40 points difference. Yet, it these two meet, the Obsidian Guard will win.

If the Ironbreakers charge, they get 6 attacks, 3 will hit, 1 will wound, and 50% chance of saving that wound. The Guard will retaliate, 5 attacks (assuming didn't save), 2 or 3 will hit, and since they have GW, they should wound twice. With 6 S, that's a -3 save, 1 should save, thus a tie. If you got lucky and hit 3, that might mean you kill 2 and that is all it takes because Guard cause FEAR and now they outnumber which means the Ironbreakers break!

I think the FEAR makes them more than a bargain.

So, have I missed the point?
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:44 pm

to EVERYBODY


First off, all the input everyone gives is very appreciated. It is all read and considered. It's natural to have disagreements over things, but we are all working toward the same goal. I would encourage you to try to not get frustrated with the process- it's a process, and we'll get the book to a point where people are mostly happy with it. Have patience.

So everybody please, just take a step back, and relax. ;)

Larro wrote:
Think about it. We cried for weeks before any changes were made to the Earthshaker, and cried even more before it regained even ANY of its former teeth.



We're trying to space out new versions of the list, so as not to have a new one every week or whatever. You didn't need to cry for weeks- we heard the comments the first time, and changes were made in the next version.

Larro wrote:
You want simple fixes from a pretty reasonable standpoint?
- Chaos Dwarfs w/ Chaos Armor become 12 pts., meaning +3 pts. for Chaos Armor.
- Obsidian Guard go down to 13 with Shield, and can exchange their shield for GW.
- Golems get a 3+ Save and go down to 60 pts., OR stay with their 4+ Save and go down to 50 or 55 pts.
- Magic Phase reverts to DICE, and keeps GOOD Lores of magic, as opposed to proposed neutered Lore of Hashut.
- Demoneaters +1 wound, or else 130 pts.

Anyone who thinks I'm wrong, so be it, but please, if you're going to disagree, at least give SOME semblance of rational basis for disagreeing here.

- Larry


Much of this is on the list to be addressed for V4 so please do not feel as though you are being ignored.

What I would like to do is keep a running list of planned changes for V4 in the general section, just so you can see what we have already decided to change. Kevin, is that alright?
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby method » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:53 pm

Well, all of Larry's suggestions are pretty spot on..
(except the magic phase, i like kevin's idea alot..)
coming from a long time cd player, and tourny player i feel these are well balanced..

i am still not comfortable with the chaos armor on chaos dwarves (but the Ob guard should have access), but thats just me, i think weapon teams are fluffy enough for the cd warriors to be taken.. if not a great tourny choice..
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Renufus » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:02 am

method wrote:Well, all of Larry's suggestions are pretty spot on..
(except the magic phase, i like kevin's idea alot..)
coming from a long time cd player, and tourny player i feel these are well balanced..

i am still not comfortable with the chaos armor on chaos dwarves (but the Ob guard should have access), but thats just me, i think weapon teams are fluffy enough for the cd warriors to be taken.. if not a great tourny choice..


I lost a lot of faith in weapons teams after I found out they have to roll to hit. I haven't used them since.

I actually like the Chaos Armour on the regular CD warriors. Typical Dwarf Warriors aren't all that great anymore since the metagame has shifted so much in favor of super killy elite infantry that just cut through them like nothing.
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby KevinC » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:26 am

Think about it. We cried for weeks before any changes were made to the Earthshaker, and cried even more before it regained even ANY of its former teeth.


----------Maybe this is why some are frustrated then, sorry if I was not clear about this. But everytime a change is determined that does not call for a new version. I knew that I wanted to do something with Earthshakers since version 1, version 2 came out a week later because I thought I needed to fix and add some things right away.

Version 4 is not coming out until mid July, but even so, that is why we've encouraged playtesting things that are not in version 3, such as 10-man archers units, etc. I am only still on the fence about 10-man archers because this is a Chaos Dwarf list and I don't want Hobgoblin units to be so appealing that armies start to have lots of Hobgobs and not many CDs. There are other elements involved in designing an army list other than pure game balance. There is the image of the army itself for one. For example, Heavy armoured Halfling Knights might be 100% completely balanced and a benefit on a whole for the Lizardmen army, does that then mean Heavy Armoured Halfling Knights should be in the Lizards book?

Kevin out
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Re: v.3 Hobgoblins vs Tomb King (2000)

Postby Larro » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:27 am

I would love for someone to tell me how an Empire Swordsman equals a DE spearman. They both cost 6 points. Yet, what I don't hear is how OTT the DE army is compared to the Empire.


I'll tell you that DE Spearmen are definitely under-utilized and are a fantastic Core choice that are simply overlooked because the rest of the book is so out of whack. I think a super solid DE list could be made with Spearmen as the foundation. They're extremely cost-effective and get a huge bang for the buck. And seriously, you don't hear about how DEs are OTT compared to Empire? Why is it people keep referencing "The Big 3", as in VC/DL/DEs then? Come on now.

As far as Obsidian Guard being compatable with either the Hammerer or Ironbreaker units. Larry is correct in his point totals. But for those measly 1-2 points, you get Killing Blow and Cause Fear. You also get a GW. Yes, that makes a unit of 20 of these brutes 330 points, but considering that a unit of Iron Breakers will cost you 290 for 20, that is 40 points difference. Yet, it these two meet, the Obsidian Guard will win.


And if Skeletons fight HE Spearmen, they'll lose too. What does this prove? The units have completely different roles. Ironbreakers have a good role, and Obsidian Guard have the role of being jack of all trades and overpriced as a result. An army like Dwarfs/CDs do not need a jack of all trades unit. These guys are lousy compared to elite Dwarf units, end of story. Don't try to sell me on Killing Blow. KB is only useful on lower-middle strength troops. It loses 75% of its value on a S6 troop. If these guys were 13 pts. or at most, 14 pts., with their shield, then we could talk. They'd be S4 Killing Blow, with the option for the GW IF they wanted it. And Fear is overrated in a list like this. You can't take advantage of it anyways, and a Demonsmith can already make you Immune, so that's 95% of the battle.

I am only still on the fence about 10-man archers because this is a Chaos Dwarf list and I don't want Hobgoblin units to be so appealing that armies start to have lots of Hobgobs and not many CDs. There are other elements involved in designing an army list other than pure game balance.


You won't see RH style nonsense because a Hobgobbo with a Bow is 50 pts. for the unit, and if you make the proper changes, Sh/LA would be 80 for 20. People only spammed HGs because they were 20 pts for 10 models in RH days. Obviously ridiculous. But minimum size 20 for Sh/LA guys, and paying 5 pts. for a Bow, are not unreasonable. Yes I agree with Andy that they have uses, and most people would take 2-3 units of them, but so what? The army's CORE will still be Chaos Dwarfs, and you won't be winning any games based on your Hobgoblins. Your CDs and CD-cousins like Bulls and the like will be needed to win, particularly vs. the shit out there these days. It's really not that big a deal, no more so than O&G being able to spam units of Snotlings till their hearts are content, or High Elves having the option for up to 4 Eagles for the same 200 pts., or Undead with 40 pt. 18" Dire Wolf fast cav.

- Larry
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