V3 Inferno Golems comments here

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Re: V3 Inferno Golems comments here

Postby elrodogg » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:16 am

mattbird wrote:Larry, we have already said to you and everyone else multiple times that they will get cheaper.


Are you crazy? With their abilities they are fair and balanced. Possibly needing even a point increase.
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Re: V3 Inferno Golems comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:23 am

Birdoff, I understand that. I was referring to Coleman's comments. You and him do not appear to be on the same page with several things, Hobgoblins included, so I'm not off base in thinking that while YOU may think Golems need to get cheaper (because they do), that he does not.

When someone says that they like how something is turning out, it generally means that they like how it's turning out. I'm taking him at face value here when he says that, and reading Kevin's post and the quoted text in its entirety reads to me as him being happy and keeping status quo, outside of possibly lowering weapons costs.

- Larry
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Re: V3 Inferno Golems comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:28 am

Ronen Warrior wrote:Are you crazy? With their abilities they are fair and balanced. Possibly needing even a point increase.


This is a joke right?

What abilities are you talking about? The one where they can't Flee? Magical attacks, big deal.

A Minotaur with a GW is 46 pts., has the same Movement and WS, causes Fear, can Flee, is the same LD8, and comes with MoCU for free. Yeah it's T4 unarmored vs. T5, but it's S6 which is significantly better than S5 (wounding almost everything on 2s), the GW going last thing is meaningless given the low Init of the Golems, and they costs 19 pts. less! 19 pts.!!! And please don't even start with Minos being underpriced, because they're not. The Golems are about 50% more expensive, for no reason, PLUS they've got the added drawback of being ItP and thus unable to flee. How anyone can say with a straight face that they're fair and balanced is beyond me.

Once more, compare them to Treekin. Treekin, the unit no one takes. Treekin, with the same Fear, same S5 T5, same WS, same LD, same 4+ save, but ALSO with a 5+ magical Ward, and for 10 pts. cheaper.

Where are the people saying Treekin are broken??? All I've ever heard is how mediocre they are. So for 10 pts. more, and an extra point of Movement, at the expense of the 5+ Ward Save, we cross into the threshold of fair and balanced, OR so good they need to be upped?

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Re: V3 Inferno Golems comments here

Postby elrodogg » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:54 am

It's all about context. This unit is twice as fast as the infantry that it supports, hence the point cost is appropriate.
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Re: V3 Inferno Golems comments here

Postby mattbird » Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:11 am

Larro wrote:Birdoff, I understand that. I was referring to Coleman's comments. You and him do not appear to be on the same page with several things, Hobgoblins included, so I'm not off base in thinking that while YOU may think Golems need to get cheaper (because they do), that he does not.

When someone says that they like how something is turning out, it generally means that they like how it's turning out. I'm taking him at face value here when he says that, and reading Kevin's post and the quoted text in its entirety reads to me as him being happy and keeping status quo, outside of possibly lowering weapons costs.

- Larry


understood. In this case Kev and I are in agreement- the plan is to keep stats as is, drop cost, readdress weapon upgrades.
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Re: V3 Inferno Golems comments here

Postby Alric » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:40 pm

Larro wrote:
Ronen Warrior wrote:Are you crazy? With their abilities they are fair and balanced. Possibly needing even a point increase.


This is a joke right?

What abilities are you talking about? The one where they can't Flee? Magical attacks, big deal.

A Minotaur with a GW is 46 pts., has the same Movement and WS, causes Fear, can Flee, is the same LD8, and comes with MoCU for free. Yeah it's T4 unarmored vs. T5, but it's S6 which is significantly better than S5 (wounding almost everything on 2s), the GW going last thing is meaningless given the low Init of the Golems, and they costs 19 pts. less! 19 pts.!!! And please don't even start with Minos being underpriced, because they're not. The Golems are about 50% more expensive, for no reason, PLUS they've got the added drawback of being ItP and thus unable to flee. How anyone can say with a straight face that they're fair and balanced is beyond me.

Once more, compare them to Treekin. Treekin, the unit no one takes. Treekin, with the same Fear, same S5 T5, same WS, same LD, same 4+ save, but ALSO with a 5+ magical Ward, and for 10 pts. cheaper.

Where are the people saying Treekin are broken??? All I've ever heard is how mediocre they are. So for 10 pts. more, and an extra point of Movement, at the expense of the 5+ Ward Save, we cross into the threshold of fair and balanced, OR so good they need to be upped?

- Larry


Larry has some good points here , hes voicing some of the experience that I have had playing chaos dwarfs with their low initiative.

What I have found with playing chaos dwarf army is that you need units with high str and wounds to balance the low initiative. This is why I like the bull centaurs at 2 wounds and using great axes, as in the last battle report with the beastmen army you can see the bull centaurs didnt do so well with hand weapon and shield combo even with the chaos armor.

The best fix with these guys that I can see would be a 3+ save or maybe a ward save or the higher str flame weapon, but I dont think it would be a good idea to increase the base cost , 65 points each is high enough I think, just adjust their save and/or raise their str.
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Re: V3 Inferno Golems comments here

Postby Maul » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:16 pm

Something about this unit just does not do it for me.

If you were going to give them a little bump, I would look at any of the following:
Movement 6 instead of 5, Ws5 instead of 4, strength 6 instead of 5.

If these things are constructs, then should they not simply be unbreakable.

I am concerned about the flaming attacks and getting into trouble with other things that are immune to fire. Why not give them a slam attack and make it so they can essential turn the burning attacks off.That way they are not sitting infront of other chaos dwarf characters or units in dragon armor waiting to break or be killed.
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Re: V3 Inferno Golems comments here

Postby Bleyden » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:03 pm

I think the idea of a big burning molten lava rock guy is awesome, so well done on that 1st of all.

I think they should have a 4+AS that cant be modified, that means they are REALLY tough. Only things that dont allow AS at all should stop em.

Counstruct weapons are cool but too expensive. Also the Flame one is weak. S4 AP would be better.

Maybe make them M6 but they cant march, I mean they are boulders thrown together so they cant be too quick.

I like the fact they cant flee, they're giant heaps of rock, what do they know about tactics?

They should be unbreakable. This means they are a lot more sturdy.

I think the idea of this unit is just so awesome and Chaos Dwarfy.
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Re: V3 Inferno Golems comments here

Postby Chuckman » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:06 am

I really like this unit. I agree with the points cost adjustments right now they are less effective then iron breakers and more expensive. Also that they should be slow, movement 5 does seem right.

I agree with the others when they said they should be unbreakable, constructs would not have a morale or fear. Or they could lose wounds like a tomb king construct when they lose a combat.

They should be very tough, toughness 5 is good, but they should have a high armour save to reflect that they are made of rock, 3+AS? or maybe a small ward save 6+ or 5+ to reflect their magicness.

Another fun thing to do would be to let all of them have a weapon upgrade (but make the units maximum size of three).
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Re: V3 Inferno Golems comments here

Postby mattbird » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:47 am

Hi all, something to keep in mind is that all who have play tested with these guys in actual games have been surprised at how happy they were with the unit as is. The plan is drop a few points per model, adjust the weapon upgrade costs, and call it a day. I don't think we will be making any major changes to them at this point...

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