Mattbird report #6 vs. Lizardmen

[mattbird]

I took an abusive magic/shooty army of death against Luke's Lizardmen, mainly to test out the blunderbusses and magic system as much as possible. My list was:

High Priest, 2 scrolls, extra initiative item
bsb, black gem
2 daemonsmiths, with 2 scrolls total and the extra dispel dice thing

3 units of annihilators, command
20 warriors w/ chaos armor, shield, bound magic missile banner
2 hobbo wolfrider units

4 bolt throwers
5 bull centaurs, chaos armor, shields, gw
daemoneater

hellcannon



Luke had approximatetly:
slann w/ becalming
engine of gods w/ lvl 3 skink
bsb saurus
bound flying saurus guy

big saurus unit
2 skink units

big temple guard unit
terradons
krox
saurus cav


Report:
I had brought a gun to a knife fight, which was ok. My list was probably the most abusive I could think up in short notice. (I wrote it on the fly). The game ended in a massacre for the Dwarfs of Chaos on turn 5, with no Lizards on the table, and me losing just a unit of wolfriders, the hellcannon, and my bsb. Luke had never gone against the RH Chaos Dwarf list, and had no idea of what blunderbusses did in those rules or how much havoc they could cause. He walked into "the valley of death" with his infantry, and none survived.

Thoughts

Magic:This was my first game using the new magic setup, and I though the power level was about right. I liked that there is only 1 direct damage spell, so you really cannot cause that much actually direct destruction unless you go max magic. I think the movement spell is too good, if only because multiple wizards can cast it. Magic had little real effect in our game, partially because Luke had a ton of dispel dice, and I rolled like crap. I do think that daemonsmiths are too cheap- they should cost at least as much as a level 2 wizard, maybe more, with all their abilities; fear, good combat, casting. I would also suggest that perhaps the Daemonsmiths should know only 1 random spell, not 6. Having access to so many spells makes them much more effective that normal hero wizard.

Blunderbusses: I used the trial rules in the Annihilator thread (str4, AP, fire in 3 ranks). They were WAY to good. They did all the real damage, and they were able to kill anything within 12"; terradons, krox, temple guard, saurus, skinks. They felt seriously broken, and I think the blunderbuss rules are the biggest problem we face in this book. How can we make them useful and desirable, but not make them vomit-inducing? I'm not sure. Some afterthoughts at the bar were: str 3 AP, or fire in 2 ranks instead of 3, or only let them fire in ranks if they do not move.

Bull Centaurs: with Chaos Armor they get a 2+ save, but still move 8"/16", making them the second fastest heavy cav unit in the game, behind silver helms. Is this a good idea?

Bolt throwers: should cost 35 pts, same as the gobbo ones?

Everything else: solid.

[Larro]

Magic - if Demonsmiths know only 1 random spell, they become balls. The magic Lore is horrific outside of the Fireball, the Movement spell, and Earthquake. Paying all those points in magic without the GUARANTEE of getting at least the Fireball makes them 100% unviable. If you let them roll 2 spells out of the 6, like a regular Level 2 mage, and gave them access to the Fireball as DEFAULT, this would work just fine, like a standard Lore of magic.

Blunderbusses - S3 AP is horrific. Go back to the death-box, eliminate friendly fire and multiple enemy fire, and call it a day. Your other variants are either too strong or too weak, whereas the death-box has no issues outside of minor gameplay challenges, which I'll take any day over underpowered/overpowered effectiveness.

Bull Centaurs - pay out the ass for the Chaos Armor, and they only get a 2+ save IF in HTH AND using a Shield and not a GW. This means they're swinging at S4. Hardly broken, and sufficiently expensive for the CA (6 pts. per model). Are they really that outrageous? I find it hard to believe.

- Larry

[mattbird]

Magic - if Demonsmiths know only 1 random spell, they become balls. The magic Lore is horrific outside of the Fireball, the Movement spell, and Earthquake. Paying all those points in magic without the GUARANTEE of getting at least the Fireball makes them 100% unviable. If you let them roll 2 spells out of the 6, like a regular Level 2 mage, and gave them access to the Fireball as DEFAULT, this would work just fine, like a standard Lore of magic.

yup, agree.

[Larro]

We agree!



- Larry

[mattbird]

[world ends]

[Guy In Suit]

You could even charge them for the second spell, similar to mages. Then you can use them as a cheap utility character who causes fear and has a decent bound in a non-magicky list, or you can opt to pay for the second spell to give you more flexibility if your list relies more on magic.

[Larro]

What in the world is up with you guys and points increases? It's astounding. They're not that good, nor are they underpriced.

A Vampire is 100 pts. He's a Level 1. He has the same stats, with a 3rd attack, and is also a Level 1 mage (and actually gives dispel dice). These guys only cast 1 spell a turn, who cares if they know 2 of them? All it does is put them on even footing with other mages out there.

Otherwise, what's the big deal with knowing the entire Bound lore? Empire Warrior Priests have access to a reroll hit/wound spell, a 4+ Ward, soulfire, unbreakable, and healing. That's 5 Spells. Is it really that big a deal if these guys know all the spells of the Lore?

The issue to me seems that it's the movement spell. So, lessen the range to 12" and have it only affect Chaos Dwarf infantry units and exclude Bull Centaurs, or to make things simpler in the alternative, just specify that only units of CD Warriors, Annhiliators, and Obsidian Guard can be affected, in the way Staff of Darkoth only affects Warhounds, Herds and Bestigors.

- Larry

[Guy In Suit]

Just make the movement spell move the unit 6", regardless of the actually movement of the unit, with range 12 and it's solved.

[Hashuts Scion]

I agree that the real main issue is whether the movement spell is too good. I'm not even sure if limiting who it can be cast on is enough to curtail it. The OTT part comes from the fact that a unit can have it cast on it multiple times. SO, limit it to saying something similar to:

"Units can only be affected by this spell only once per magic phase, no matter the source."

This means it could be cast from various places, but a unit can only use the movement once. It makes it similar to the Incantation of Urgency, other movement spells.

I'm quite OK with a DS having all spells available, as Warrior Priest has access to all those prayers.

I'm with Larry on CA for BCs being 6 pts (twice what a foot trooper would pay). Remember these are a special choice and that will limit the number. Also, with a 4+ (3 w/shield), they can be shot up beforehand.

As far as the battle goes, from what I counted, the CDs had 10 units to the Lizzies 7. That right there allows for some maneuvering for flank attacks. The bolt throwers have the Saurus or the temple guard unit to pick from. So, I could see this.

Increasing the cost by 35 points so he costs 120 might be too much, but 15 points might be about right. This would make it a simple 100 points which is 35 points over the slavemaster. But, do not limit the number of spells he has. After all a Liche priest has all 4, a Warrior Priest has all 5. And, by the current fluff, it is the daemon who is casting it, not the DS.

[Larro]

"Units can only be affected by this spell only once per magic phase, no matter the source."

This is automatic, and is how every movement spell works currently. No idea why this was never included in the spell text to begin with. A unit should never be able to move more than once as a result of a spell or effect.

Also, re: Luke's LM list, it wasn't the most competitive list I've ever seen. It's far too light on deployments. I'm more curious to see how Jarrett's LM list would have done, with a couple less points-sinks and more in line with 'traditional' LM builds - 2x or more Terradons, 2-3x+ Skinks, a few individual Sallies, etc. You know, 10-12 drops, more maneuverability, more targets, more shooting of its own, etc.

- Larry