V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Grimstonefire » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:05 pm

I think I understand your reasoning on killing blow, you mean because a lower strength weapon would have exactly the same affect, but GW strike last so are not so likely to get the KB hits in (and cost 2pts/ model compared to HW with KB)?

I could understand that, it would make more sense to this:

Obsidian guard 12pts - Chaos Armour, Killing Blow, Hand Weapon
+1 pt Additional hand weapon
+1 pt shield

That would include my fiddle factor for what I think chaos/ gromril armour should be for these guys. We always seem to see great weapons as traditional for chaos dwarf elite, but additional with killing blow would be more useful than great weapon imo.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby mattbird » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:16 pm

+1 pt Additional hand weapon


that's a sexy idea if I ever saw one.. worth more than 1 point, though? What do chaos warriors pay for xtra hw?
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:55 pm

Grimstonefire wrote:I think I understand your reasoning on killing blow, you mean because a lower strength weapon would have exactly the same affect, but GW strike last so are not so likely to get the KB hits in (and cost 2pts/ model compared to HW with KB)?


It was more to the point that a S6 wound is likely going to kill whatever it wounds anyways, since it's already wounding on 2s and -3 to the save, so it mitigates the power of KB even vs. more armored foes, which is usually the strength of KB. Grave Guard are KB S4, so it's nice when you roll a 6 to wound a Knight who would be saving on a 3+ normally. Saving that same wound on a 5+ isn't as big a deal. Don't get me wrong, KB is still better than no KB, but it's not 100% maximized on high-strength models, particularly when you add in your statement about them going last due to the GWs.

I am on-board with 12 pt. Obsidian Guard as-is, with +1 pt. for Shields OR GWs, and +2 pts. for 2nd HWs. I'm saying +2 pts. for the XHW because of the KB. It makes these guys really scary to face for characters and the like, and doesn't completely neuter them since it's not auto-strike last, just "strike last majority of the time" b/c of their Dwarven init.

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Renufus » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:55 pm

Start at 12pts with just Chaos Armour
+1 shield/GW
+2 xhw

Winner!
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:00 pm

Except we're not the ones writing the rules. :cry:

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Maul » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:45 pm

I know the last thing we really need is one more person piling on.
I like the killing blow, that I did not expect to see in the list. I do not think the unit needs to cause fear, maybe they should be immune to psychology. They are too pricy to make good use of fear anyway so just tone that down and shave your one or two points off. I would much rather have stubborn and immune to psychology over fear.
I am not likely to use the great weapons on this unit (strike last and loose all your shield bonus) is in almost all cases going to be giving too much up to use the weapons for my taste. You could always pull a chaos knight and give them all swords of might.

You could give the different equipment options all together:

sickles: HW w killing blow
Sword of Might: +1 strength and counts as magical attacks

I am just punting ideas out there. :2guns:
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:22 am

Hey Maul, don't be timid or afraid of "piling on." You're on the right side of this argument. OG are too expensive, particularly to utilize Fear, but guys like Birdoff think it's some blessing to be a Fear-causer, even if it costs you 350+ pts. to take advantage of it. I say screw Fear. I'd rather be a fully-equipped KB 2+ save S4 unit for 12 or 13 pts per model and leave the fear at home than be 15 pts.

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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Grimstonefire » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:07 pm

My feeling is that there are certain special rules that are not worth including for units with M3. Fear & frenzy for example.

For anything above M3 it may be worth it, especially cavalry, but the slower you are the easier it is for the enemy to just avoid these units.

Frenzy you could get away with for a scouting unit, but that's not really relevant.

I think you need something that improves their ability to kill the enemy. Being stubborn and/ or ITP may not be worth it too much, as I'm guessing most people would just play them with a character in anyway.

Another consideration is whether they should be built to take on certain things, or just as all comers.

For example:

2nd hand weapon, killing blow, re-roll missed attacks = good against most horde armies.
Great weapon, killing blow, armour piercing attacks = good against heavily armoured elites and monsters
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Bleyden » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:09 am

These guys have obviously formed a bit of a hoo-haa...

12 Points
Hatred (instead of Fear)
KB
CA
HW
Shield (+1pt)
GW (+1pt)
Magic Standard of up to 50 points
Darklon can have 25 points of magic items

Hatred is very Chaos Dwarfy and it distinguishes them from Hammerers. If this is overpowered maybe say that they only get Hatred when joined by a Slavemaster/Overlord.
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Re: V3 Obsidian Guard comments here

Postby Larro » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:16 am

I think this is a good suggestion as well. Fear is just fairly useless on these guys because of their points-cost and their high LD, though I do think you should probably include the Shield and make these guys 13 pts. base to avoid a too-cheap option, and then have the GW be swapped for the Shield.

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