V4 Daemonsmith comments here!

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Re: V4 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby KevinC » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:23 pm

Well, there simply needs to be much playtesting with magic. As Ronen and Aves pointed out, you can make a completely potent and loaded magic phase.

Larry the way you talk makes me think you will simply not be happy unless Chaos Dwarfs have a completely broken, indomitable magic phase. Casting Unseen Lurker for free on a power level 5 is 'balls'? Then what is when you throw dice at it trying to cast it at power level 11+?

Kevin out
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Re: V4 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Larro » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:42 pm

Just come out and admit it. It's obvious from the beginning you didn't like the Bound fireball Banner, you didn't like single-shot S3 Blunderbuss rules, and you don't even let CD's default. You want them to have nothing effective in the way of ranged power. I mean honestly, it took you weeks to budge on 10-man Hobbo archer units!

Now, maybe I don't see it, but what's so awesome about Unseen Lurker on a brick of Chaos Dwarf Warriors? Particularly at such a low power level? It's an extremely situational spell, it's dead weight turns 1-3, and IF/WHEN it becomes game-changing (a tough sell on M3 troops to begin with), it's easily dispelled.

The Bound Fireball Banner was at least effective from Turn 1 onward and augmented your magic phase the entire game, making it worth it's points.

At the moment, I am hard-pressed to EVER see the time I'd want the Unseen Lurker Banner over the cheaper War Banner, which is also much better suited for Dwarf/Chaos Dwarf playstyle of grinding it out. At least the Fireball banner makes you think about paying double the price of the War Banner, and it's a consideration because of the value over each turn.

As for your snide comment about 11+ power dice invoke casting, that's 100% irrelevant to this discussion and a complete tangent. I'm talking very-specifically about your Magic phase, which has been Issue #1 from the beginning, and which is finally rounding into viable shape, but which you continue to weaken at any possible moment. The fact that Vampire magic is broken has no bearing on this conversation at all. And personally, spamming of Invocations isn't broken. It's how VC work. Spamming of everything else, particularly Vanhel's, IS admittedly very broken.

Now, how hard would it have been for you to simply make your FAQ ruling saying "yes" instead of "no" regarding Defaulting Demonsmiths? Instead, you say No, for a reason I cannot begin to fathom, and state only that in the next version, you'll possibly change Demonsmiths to allow them to default. :bash:

How hard was it to keep the Bound fireball Banner? I mean, it existed for 3.5 Versions, and now it vanishes for no reason, and is replaced with the much-less-useful Unseen Lurker only available on M3 Troop banner? Why? WoC get the exact same option, in a list MUCH more heavily geared to efficient Magic than this Chaos Dwarf list can ever hope to be.

Honestly, I don't think I'm being unfair here. You disagree, but from the beginning you've admittedly had little regard to the competitive player. This is evident in your comments and rationale about Golems and many of your other subpar choices - or do you not remember the epic battle over something so largely irrelevant as 4-point Hobbos? How about 10-man Archers?

The fact is that as the bookwriter, *you* are dictating what everyone else is able to field, so you're the person we appeal to. You and Birdoff have done a great job on this book, but that doesn't mean the work is finished yet. There are a few things that are inexplicable, and they're still Magic-phase related.

- Larry
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Re: V4 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby KevinC » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:15 pm

I appreciate your feedback Larry. But, I'm not the one going off on tangents, you are. This is not the final book. Which means these issues you have are not set in stone. If you think Daemonsmiths should be able to swap for the default spell, the fire ball banner such return or whatever, you simply need to say so along with your opinion as to way. But instead you keep going on and on, about how I hate warhammer magic and blah, blah, blah (which is not even true) and adds zero wait to you arguements.

Your desires are noted. Feel free to playtest with the default spell swap. In fact I encourage everyone to play some games trying to make the meanest magic phase you can, I think it is more effect that you do.

Kevin out
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Re: V4 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Larro » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:24 pm

Glad to see you're at least being receptive this time. I'll encourage those who can playtest to do so, unless you count Lorenz games, in which I too can playtest.

- Larry
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Re: V4 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Aves » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:39 pm

Just come out and admit it. It's obvious from the beginning you didn't like the Bound fireball Banner, you didn't like single-shot S3 Blunderbuss rules, and you don't even let CD's default. You want them to have nothing effective in the way of ranged power. I mean honestly, it took you weeks to budge on 10-man Hobbo archer units!


Larro, take this hatefull pointing finger and stick it ... between your teeth.

Judging by this paragraph everything done so far is basicly wrong and nothing makes sense. Do you realy belive so?

Now something that you might have forgot, the fact that some guy writes to Kevin something on some forum, (like you or me) doesnt make it undoubtly truthfull and rightfull. It might have some sense to to, it might not. Nagging about how long you have proposed some change is ridicolous, i mean so what. Army list can;t be overoptimised, if it is it's called "Demons on Chaos". When it comes to tunning changes are best added slowly and effects recorded, else chaos follows, chaos of changes and different balances between units and options.

And next time you would like to write "competitive player" in any context please just say powergamer.
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Re: V4 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Guy In Suit » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:55 pm

Hey, he's been good lately, not a single fetus has been harmed in the making of a Larro post this month!

I think the unseen lurker banner is great, allows you to pull off a sneaky flank charge! I think it works best on the Obsidian guard; no one likes a bunch of S6 attacks on the charge (very pricey tho...)

One thing i don't like about the smiths is the random buff. I really hate book-keeping, and its annoying for your opponent to remember which one has what as well. I think the original Sword of Might for free idea was fine.

The spells should obviously default, otherwise you could end up with something silly like a +1 WS smith and a spell that does literally nothing.
2014: 91/52
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Re: V4 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby mikkjel » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:38 pm

I think the bound spell banner is a little weak. Making it a high powerlevel and one use only (and most people will only get one chance to use it) might be an idea.

As for stacking the magic phase, 4 bound spells, a lvl4 and -d3 dispel dice is sufficiently stacked. Its more subtle against a lot of armies, but the fact that you have multiple lores to chose from means that at best youre looking at 9d6 s4 magic missiles per round, and at worst 4 RoBI. The fact that so much of it cannot miscast or fail to cast, as well as tough hybrid casters means you ARE getting your moneys worth. A CD list is probably going to take enough war machines to make sure they keep most armies honest and wanting to engage them in combat. The fact that armies without massed dispel dice probably have to let one or two bounds through per round means that you will be getting off some spells. I guess it might be a problem that the CD list doesnt have a magic phase at 2k without taking a lvl4 caster.

As for ranged power, I think it might be a slight problem for the CD list to keep up with proper empire/dwarf funlines, but that wouldnt be addressed in the magic phase. Honestly, I dont think it would be addressed at all, but those are extreme builds, and this book doesnt look like it is supposed to be so competitive as to have a good chance against extreme builds.
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Re: V4 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Renufus » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:47 pm

mikkjel wrote:I think the bound spell banner is a little weak. Making it a high powerlevel and one use only (and most people will only get one chance to use it) might be an idea.

As for stacking the magic phase, 4 bound spells, a lvl4 and -d3 dispel dice is sufficiently stacked.


I wonder how many people realize the Chalice of Fire is *not* a straight-up -d3 dispel dice item, it hurts your own pool every bit as much as your opponent's.
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Re: V4 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Larro » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:06 pm

Aves wrote:Army list can;t be overoptimised, if it is it's called "Demons on Chaos". When it comes to tunning changes are best added slowly and effects recorded, else chaos follows, chaos of changes and different balances between units and options.


This is patently false, and overstating what I want. I don't want over-optimization. I want competitive viability. I want something akin to Empire, which is not OTT in any phase of the game.

Do you realize that for a LESSER investment than what CD's pay for Magic, Empire get's a LD9 General who can fight and has the Speculum, on an Unbreakable Ward-Save War Altar, with 2 bound Prayers and a Bound 5 of ANY spell in the Lore of Light he chooses (not just the 1 spell Demonsmiths get), and get at a minimum the same 6 power dice. However, with the Rod, they get anywhere from 7-9, and the Ring of Volans for an additional bound spell. All for cheaper. All more versatile. And not the least bit broken. Add in the fact that they've got 2-3 other very-good Bound spells available to them in the book, and you've got a very well rounded Phase, that can compete, but is not OTT.

We, on the other hand, lose our *one* viable magic banner...in exchange for Unseen Lurker...on M3 troops. :|

As currently situated, you can get 6 power dice and a Bound spell, +1 bound spell per Demonsmith. So, if you invest in say, 2 Demonsmiths, you get 6 dice, and 3 bounds. 1 of your Bounds (Cleansing Flare) is likely of ZERO use Turns 1-2 due to it's 12" range. Also, your Demonsmiths are likely to roll less-than-useful spells, particularly without the ability to Default. So, you're paying through the nose for a Lord-level caster and 2 middle of the road casters, for what? A mediocre Magic phase?

The real kick in the pants is this ridiculous inability for Demonsmiths to get Magic Items. Why can't I get the Apparatus on my High Priest, for +1PD, and the Bound spell Demonbane on my DS? Or why not make the Demonbane Enchanted? Other lists have Bound Enchanted Items. Instead, you give 3 new Arcane Items and only allow 1 guy the option to take them. To claim this is something other than intentional gimping by the part of the Game Designer (and furthers my opinion that he dislikes MAgic) is disingenuous.

Do you know what we had under RH? An easily attainable and much cheaper level 4 and 2 Level 2s, giving us 10 dice, and a BSB to boot. AND LD10. And an Earthshaker that actually shook the Earth. Now? We're a shell of our former selves. And we weren't even that good to begin with.

And next time you would like to write "competitive player" in any context please just say powergamer.


No idea what you're talking about, but obviously you think competitiveness is a bad thing. I'll take this one step further and assume you're one of those guys who believes that children should get awards for participation in sports too, and that even losers should be patted on the back. Sorry for not subscribing to this theory, but all it does is foster a lack of motivation and incentive. If you want to suck, you're more than willing to do so. I however should not be forced to adopt your attitude. If you don't want to take viable units or magic, then don't do so. At least give some of us who want it the *option* to compete.

- Larry
"Just being born means you've lost to Larro. Or haven't you gotten the memo yet?" - Nidal

"Larry was right. I know he never gets tired of hearing that." - Canterman
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Re: V4 Daemonsmith comments here!

Postby Matt » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:33 pm

I don't want to interrupt the private war...

But I'm curious to see how that movement banner pans out.
Yes, saving it for that surprise charge and hope it isn't dispelled would be awesome; but as others pointed out, it isn't likely. It is even less likely if your opponent has faced the army once before, or read anything about the army list.

What I was thinking, is less obvious uses for that banner.
Using it every magic phase, to rapidly push forward a block may work out surprisingly well.
Being Dwarves, they can't be marched blocked. You'd be moving 6", and then another 8" (when the spell goes off). A block of dwarves rapidly moving up a flank might be interesting.

I should be able to get in a game this sunday and give it a try.


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