New Construct Weapon, please try with Inferno Golems

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Re: New Construct Weapon, please try with Inferno Golems

Postby Renufus » Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:53 pm

I have to agree with Larry. Let's examine a few of the differences between these 65 point Ogre types:

Treekin
-T5
-Magical attacks
-5+ ward save
-Move through woods

Dragon Ogres
-4 wounds
-M7 (3D6 flee/pursuit/overrun which is a big deal)
-Can get the all-important S7
-Can flee as a charge reaction but are still not susceptible to fear and panic (will of chaos rule)

Ushabti
-Semi-unbreakable (construct rule)
-S6
-I3
-Can be healed

Inferno Golems
-Flaming, magical attacks
-T5
-Ld9
-Choice of expensive and underwhelming shooting upgrades that you maybe get to use once or twice before they hit combat

Golems just don't have enough going for them to compete with these other choices, which are still considered overpriced and/or not worth taking compared to other units within their respective army books. Even for a poor class of units they're poor -- give them an armor buff and/or fire immunity and then you can start comparing.
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Re: New Construct Weapon, please try with Inferno Golems

Postby Larro » Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:41 pm

Precisely. They're the worst of the worst when it comes to overpriced 40mm monsters - and that's saying something.

More importantly, if Golems remain as they are, they'll join this illustrious group.

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Re: New Construct Weapon, please try with Inferno Golems

Postby mattbird » Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:00 pm

why are we having this discussion again? We established after V3 that EVERYONE though Golems were overcosted. Kevin overruled a points decrease. This is not new news.

and Kevin, I do not think Trekin are "bad" as you seem to think I do. I think treekin are BETTER than golems, yet cost the same points. We have already had this discussion drawn out over a month. Why are we still having it?
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Re: New Construct Weapon, please try with Inferno Golems

Postby Renufus » Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:32 pm

mattbird wrote:why are we having this discussion again?


Because it still hasn't been addressed. Golems are still subpar even for a subpar class of units and those of us who want changes will continue to argue for them whether they fall on deaf ears or not. That's what playtesting is for, telling us to turn a blind eye to an issue just because it's been drawn out is pedantic.
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Re: New Construct Weapon, please try with Inferno Golems

Postby KevinC » Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:51 pm

and Kevin, I do not think Trekin are "bad" as you seem to think I do. I think treekin are BETTER than golems, yet cost the same points. We have already had this discussion drawn out over a month. Why are we still having it?


Matt why is it an issue to talk about them again? I'm not completely satisfied with them. I think increasing their armour save to 3+ and keeping them 65 pts is fine. And I like the idea of more construct weapons, it makes them a really neat and special Rare unit.

Kevin out
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Re: New Construct Weapon, please try with Inferno Golems

Postby Aves » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:19 pm

Hmm, i'd like to add that there arent any units that have variable stats depending what upgrade someone buys, its kinda not "warhammer", construct weapons thumbs up, construct whatever +x to any stat- not so much.
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Re: New Construct Weapon, please try with Inferno Golems

Postby mattbird » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:45 pm

KevinC wrote:Matt, the construct weapons are not confusing they are no different than Ogre Maneater options. Each model may have one construct weapon and that gives them a bonus in some way. One or two give a bonus that effects the entire unit and that is clearly noted.


except that Maneaters have a total of just THREE options to choose, one of those being a simple great weapon.

Your Golems have an option of TEN upgrades, all of which are far more diverse and game changing, and new/unique than the Maneaters' very basic ones.

You had this set of upgrades right for the last 2 months, and now all of a sudden, with 2 weeks to go, it's a mess again.
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Re: New Construct Weapon, please try with Inferno Golems

Postby Aves » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:47 pm

AH and having differently armed models would mean that all shooting has to be randomised and in close combat opponent has to split the attacks.
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Re: New Construct Weapon, please try with Inferno Golems

Postby mattbird » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:49 pm

KevinC wrote:
and Kevin, I do not think Trekin are "bad" as you seem to think I do. I think treekin are BETTER than golems, yet cost the same points. We have already had this discussion drawn out over a month. Why are we still having it?


Matt why is it an issue to talk about them again? I'm not completely satisfied with them. I think increasing their armour save to 3+ and keeping them 65 pts is fine. And I like the idea of more construct weapons, it makes them a really neat and special Rare unit.

Kevin out


because you, I, and others just pulled the list of the internet for 2 weeks to make sure issues just like this were ironed out. We [edit] - virtually everyone- said that Golems were too expensive. We have been saying this for 2 months, since the first book was released. There are multiple threads, and dozens of posts to that effect. You very firmly held your ground on the cost and abilities, refusing to drop the cost. Then you said that it was a final decision, and we should stop talking about it. Now all of a sudden you are again open to a points decrease?

It's just really frustrating because you are being so inconsistent with the way you are running this project.
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Re: New Construct Weapon, please try with Inferno Golems

Postby Aves » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:55 pm

e all, EVERYONE, said that Golems were too expensive


I disagree, 65 is quite modest for unit that can mangle lots stuff in this game that currently overpowered, Cairn Wraiths are game winning unit, treeman, blood knights with regeneration, Hydra, all that was pulled before. Magical +flaming attacks and treekin stats are worth this 65 points. No this unit wont hold agains 30 ghouls, but CD army has cores to deal with masses, specials to deal with masses, having tough flanking unit for modest minimum of 195 points is alright, and dragonogres are balanced with rather low LD and inability to takechaos Marks.
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